Split Thread Weather stations and their data (Split from GW Discussion III)

[r-j]

So on the one hand we have two professional climatologists who have access to vast databases of raw weather station records such as this one

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/ghcn-daily/

Everybody has access go ghcn daily, as well as the other sources Berkeley BEST claims to use.
ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ghcn/daily/
http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ghcn/daily/

There is no secret hidden source they used. They are just flat out wrong about what they claimed.

 

[r-j]

What they claim is simply wrong. Why they did this is still a mystery.

For example, if you were studying the history of extreme heat in Chicago, you would find a slew of days in the late 1930s and early 1940s where the station currently at the Chicago O’Hare airport reported daily max temperatures above 45 degrees C (113 F). It turns out that, prior to the airport’s construction, the station now associated with the airport was on the top of a black roofed building closer to the city

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...e-dataset-from-berkeley/#sthash.hczHpOaL.dpuf

 

[greybeard]

What they claim is simply wrong. Why they did this is still a mystery.


http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...e-dataset-from-berkeley/#sthash.hczHpOaL.dpuf

It wasn't such a mystery just a short while ago r-j, they were commiting fraud to hide recent cooling according to you.

I did in the very first response to the claims found on realclimate, by the Berkeley experts.

Their claims were so egregious, so completely out there, that anyone can simply look at the official data from 1930-1948, and see with ease why they are either idiots, or liars. Or more likely, just repeating some idiot claim they read. Obviously neither has actually done any research on Chicago weather history, and especially on the station changes made.

That they use this completely wrong, even fabricated idea, to adjust temperatures shows clearly how wrong those people are, and why changing past data (not the actual data, they can't touch that), and presenting it as the true climate story, is fraudulent in the extreme.

At last, a reasonable person arrives.
I already clearly stated my position about this. The reaclclimate yahoos were brought up, to explain why the past must be made colder. I quite rightly pointed out it was complete fabrication of reality, it's insultoing to the NWS, .

Do you remember now?

 

[CapelDodger]

If you use the "find a station" tool to look for Chicago stations from 1930-1945 you get several stations. The four closest to the city centre seem to be

[snip]

4. Cicero: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCND/stations/GHCND:USC00111648/detail

Hmmm. Cicero, 1930's ... they were probably storing booze in the rain-gauge .

Al Gore, Al Capone - do I need to spell it out? Heck, there's even an "Al" in Stalin. Why can the sheeple not see it?

 

[Dan O.]

...

1. Chicago Weather Bureau: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCND/stations/GHCND:USW00014881/detail

2. Chicago Midway airport: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCND/stations/GHCND:USC00111577/detail

3. Chicago University: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCND/stations/GHCND:USW00014892/detail

4. Cicero: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCND/stations/GHCND:USC00111648/detail

Your list doesn't appear to include the weather station at the court house referenced here: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lot/?n=history

 

[Pixel42]

Your list doesn't appear to include the weather station at the court house referenced here: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lot/?n=history

As I said, there are/were loads of weather stations in the Chicago area. I just listed what appeared to be the four most central ones in 1940.

ETA: I just entered 219 South Dearborn Street on the "find a station" page and clicked on the one it found me, which came up as the Chicago Weather Bureau.

 

[Dan O.]

As I said, there are/were loads of weather stations in the Chicago area. I just listed what appeared to be the four most central ones in 1940.

ETA: I just entered 219 South Dearborn Street on the "find a station" page and clicked on the one it found me, which came up as the Chicago Weather Bureau.

Yes, I got a different location on the map when I checked but it is probably the same station. There is a historic photo here: http://cals.arizona.edu/climate/CPASW2006/proc/day1/ClimateProducts/Owen.pdf

 

[jaydeehess]

Wow - r-j, you really wasted your time because you have not established a basic fact after about three weeks: What specific weather station the article was about !

I do not know what station you are looking at but Berkeley Earth has one historical station at the CHICAGO UNIVERSITY [#163610] January 1926 - October 1994 (819 active months) (41.7833 N, 87.6000 W, 181.10 elevation)
As you can see this weather station was not moved to the O'Hare airport ! The location is actually close to flat-topped, black roofs and there is a hint of structures on one. However the elevation looks close to ground level.

r-j (29 September 2014): Please cite your source for the weather station that you think is in the image that you attached.

I just found this thread but what colour and style if roof does the tower at the university have? Black and flat?

 

[r-j]

I just found this thread but what colour and style if roof does the tower at the university have? Black and flat?

It doesn't matter, there was no rooftop station at the Uni, or at Midway.

 

[jaydeehess]

It doesn't matter, there was no rooftop station at the Uni, or at Midway.

Then why did you post aerial photos of the university?

 

[jaydeehess]

Now since this is supposed to all boil down to climate change chicanery why even bother with Chicago? Are there not stations somewhere in the world that have continuously operated from the same place for the last 100 years or so?
I know high arctic weather stations operated from at least the 1940s and still do and will not have been confounded by the growth of habitation and roadways.

Anyone care to look up the historical data from Resolute Bay or Alert?

 

[Dan O.]

The WB was a rooftop station. Some of the raw historical data is available here: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/IPS/coop/c...oreign=false&stationID=111582&_target3=Next+>

Perhaps someone could compare the raw data to the NWS published data and find what kind of correction was being applied.

 

[CapelDodger]

Now since this is supposed to all boil down to climate change chicanery why even bother with Chicago? Are there not stations somewhere in the world that have continuously operated from the same place for the last 100 years or so?

The RealClimate article concerned the reasons for adjustments, with the O'Hare case as an example. The accusation is that, while there are many real examples of station moves in the 40's, the BEST authors chose to make stuff up about O'Hare rather than use any of them.

I know high arctic weather stations operated from at least the 1940s and still do and will not have been confounded by the growth of habitation and roadways.

Anyone care to look up the historical data from Resolute Bay or Alert?

That's a completely different subject to the O'Hare imbroglio, but obviously of interest in itself. Account would still have to be taken of changes in instruments and practices, of course.

 

[Reality Check]

There is no secret hidden source they used.

Wrong, r-j, otherwise you would be able to cite the actual data rather then essentially lying about reading the actual data:
r-j (8 September 2014): Please cite the source you used to check the temperature records of from 1930 to about 1950 (1930's and early 1940's) for the weather station mentioned in the RealClimate article. (etcetera, etcetera, etcetera!).

The source is not named in the article but the climate scientist would have access to datasets of raw data that the public might not have access to.

 

[Reality Check]

What they claim is simply wrong. Why they did this is still a mystery.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...e-dataset-from-berkeley/#sthash.hczHpOaL.dpuf

Why you continue to lie about the article when you have never read the weather station data (and do not even know which one it is!) is the weeks old mystery, r-j .

r-j (8 September 2014): Please cite the source you used to check the temperature records of from 1930 to about 1950 (1930's and early 1940's) for the weather station mentioned in the RealClimate article. (etcetera, etcetera, etcetera!).

 

[Reality Check]

I just found this thread but what colour and style if roof does the tower at the university have? Black and flat?

jaydeehess: As you can see, r-j's response is to lie about the station not even existing !
The real issue is that no one here knows which station the article is referring to. But we know that it is not the University of Chicago (Rosenwald Hall) station because it was at Rosenwald Hall until 1998.

It is actually r-j's citation: History of the Chicago and Rockford weather observation sites.
He has been going in on about the official temperatures being the temperatures recorded by the actual weather station in the RealClimate article. They state that this weather station was moved from a site "close to the city" to O'Hare airport and talk about 1930s and early 1940s records before the move. But his own citation shows that the official temperature records were taken at University of Chicago Rosenwald Hall (probably the hall in his images) from 1926 to 1942 and then moved to Midway airport from 1942 to 1980. O'Hare became the official weather station in 1980 - almost 40 years after the period of interest !

ETA: The University of Chicago Rosenwald Hall station was there until circa 1998: Weather station behind Rosenwald Hall on the University of Chicago campus. It was moved, circa 1998, to the rear of 5730 S. Woodlawn. and maybe never on the tower that r-j thinks it was on.

 

[Belz...]

It doesn't matter, there was no rooftop station at the Uni, or at Midway.

And this is important because... ?

 

[r-j]

Then why did you post aerial photos of the university?

The false claim is about the official station, now at O'Hare. During the time period they claim there was a slew of 113 degree days, the official station was at the University. No flat black roofs. (the station was on the ground)

The next move, to Midway, also no black roof, the station was on the ground. They probably are confused, thinking the downtown station was being used during the heat waves. Except it was also still taking observations then, no 113 degree readings from the rooftop station.

Now since this is supposed to all boil down to climate change chicanery

Actually it was brought up as "evidence" for why drastic changes had to be made to past temperature readings. I pointed out the example was false.

The WB was a rooftop station. Some of the raw historical data is available here: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/IPS/coop/c...oreign=false&stationID=111582&_target3=Next+>.

Perhaps someone could compare the raw data to the NWS published data and find what kind of correction was being applied.

The NWS does not adjust anything. The "raw data" is a made up term. There is only the data, as recorded by the WB, the NWS or the army air corp.

This idea that anyone besides Berkeley or the NCDC adjusts the daily temperature data is made up.

 

[Reality Check]

r-j: The O'Hare weather station became the official station on 1/17/1980

r-j has repeated his inability to understand that 1980 is after 1940 and even 1950 !

You cannot even acknowledge that the data you have cited so far cannot be for that weather station, thus making the questions above moot (and your original claim baseless) :
29th September 2014: He (r-j) has been going in on about the official temperatures being the temperatures recorded by the actual weather station in the RealClimate article.
29th September 2014: r-j: The UoC Rosenwald Hall and Greenwood Ave stations were not moved to O'Hare
2 October 2014: The BEST database says the O'Hare airport weather station monthly average data extends back to 1873 !
...
when it was you, r-j, that cited History of the Chicago and Rockford weather observation sites that has the O'Hare international airport weather station being the official station from 1/17/1980. You do know that the article is talking about records from the late 1930s and early 1940s before the station was moved to O'Hare r-j? !

I will emphasize this:
3 October 2014 r-j: The O'Hare weather station became the official station on 1/17/1980, not in the 1940s. The article New daily temperature dataset from Berkeley has the example of the records from this station before the O'Hare airport existed and it was moved there showing "daily max temperatures above 45 degrees C (113 F)."

There was no physical move to Midway from Rosenwald Hall: 29th September 2014: r-j: The UoC Rosenwald Hall and Greenwood Ave stations were not moved to O'Hare or Midway - they remained at the university!

 

[Dan O.]

The NWS does not adjust anything. The "raw data" is a made up term. There is only the data, as recorded by the WB, the NWS or the army air corp.

This idea that anyone besides Berkeley or the NCDC adjusts the daily temperature data is made up.

You make these claims but offer no facts to support them. Why should anyone believe you, just another anonymous internet poster? I provided a link to the monthly reporting forms which are probably as close to the physical act of reading the instruments as we have. You need only show that the data source that you are relying on is in agreement with this data. Why is it that you apparently cannot perform this simple task? Are you perhaps expecting everybody else to do your work for you??