We live in a infinite universe

[MikeG]

Nothing is impossible in this universe.

So you accept that it is possible that the universe exists without a god or gods. Good. That is some progress, at least.

 

[bruto]

So you accept that it is possible that the universe exists without a god or gods. Good. That is some progress, at least.

Indeed, in the scenario we seem to be dealing with here, it is not only possible but inevitably necessary, for illogic and contradiction to exist, so clearly the universe works its marvels to behold both with and without gods at the same time. Name your god or invent a new one, and "boing," there it will have been all along. Next time you cut a stud a millimeter short, don't fret. Just imagine it right, and since everything is possible, it will lengthen.

In a universe where everything is possible everything must happen everywhere all at once. Time and place are merged into a magical miasma of mystical mush.

Unfortunately, since the universe is also already perfect, nothing at all can happen. Not only has it already happened, but it is yet to happen, and it has never happened. Oh glory, what could be better? Or worse?

 

[MikeG]

......Time and place are merged into a magical miasma of mystical mush..........

Just the one more alliterative M and I'd have nominated. In a universe where everything is possible, I obviously both have and have not nominated this at one and the same time.

 

[Dancing David]

I love living in our infinite universe. Means that in 3 trillion years I'll still be enjoying myself.

If you keep doing that you will go blind!

 

[Dancing David]

I don't make up stories, I know death is nothing to fear because it continues on.

that is true, life is brief but death is forever!

 

[The Man]

Wow! A thread about nothing and it has almost 300 posts in it.

Well, if nothing is impossible then a 300 post thread about the impossible (nothing) is possible.

 

[Belz...]

Do you have any evidence for your claim or not?

Baron at least to me the courtesy of answering my request before you ask me to answer yours. Can you or can you not offer a mechanism through which something could come from nothing?

How on earth does that back up your claim that 'something cannot come from nothing'.

I really get the impression that you didn't read the part I quoted at all, because it's fairly obvious if you do.

You seem to think that he has therefore said that something cannot come from nothing.

No, that's not what I said at all, so I don't see how it could seem that way.

I say an 'object' in zero dimensions is a data point with no physical properties. You ask for evidence so I provide the quote that says exactly this, and you pretend it never happened and call it bizarre. It's bizarre alright.

No, you said this:

No it isn't, it's an argument from the fact an object in zero dimensions is well known to be a data point with no physical properties. These are mathematical constructs and cannot exist in the real world.

That's what I'm asking you to support. We can all read your posts, you know?

This is absurd, and funny too. Let's recap.

* I asked you how mass can exist in zero dimensions.
* You reply, 'Asked and answered'.
* I dispute this and you refer me to post #251 in which you respond "Mass, for example" in reply to what attributes a zero dimensional object might have.

Is this really your standard of evidence?

You seem to have a LOT of trouble following a string of posts, because this isn't what I was refering to at all. I was refering to this:

It just exists. You can't imagine how an object could exist with zero space or time dimensions, but that's an argument from incredulity.

Now perhaps if you slowed down and took time to read what I actually post we'd be getting somewhere. A while ago you denied that I posted something a full post after I did that very thing.

Sure, what about pelicans?

(And when you reply "What have pelicans to do with it?" I can fail completely to justify my statement and simply reply, "If you think that, then you absolutely don't understand the idea," because that way everyone will think I know something really important that you don't).

No you don't, because pelicans actually have nothing to do with information theory. I'll just assume you have no idea what it entails, then.

 

[baron]

Baron at least to me the courtesy of answering my request before you ask me to answer yours. Can you or can you not offer a mechanism through which something could come from nothing?

You mean aside from the multiple times when I answered directly such as

I very much doubt there can be a description other than a mathematical one, and I'm not a quantum mathematician. That's why I rely on the likes of Hawking and Krauss to summarise these things.

and

Do you have any idea of the mechanism by which a bubble universe can spontaneously arise from 'a sea of chaos'? Likewise, I don't know the equations for the alternative hypothesis but some people far more learned than me do, and I've just named two of them. Do you yet have names of physicists or cosmologists who do not believe that something can come from nothing?

and

Mechanisms are rarely explicit in the quantum world and it's unnecessary for a mechanism to be known for something to be considered possible, likely or factual. What is the mechanism by which a particle creates interference patterns with itself? Nobody knows, yet the fact that it does is indisputable. What is the mechanism for the initiation of the Big Bang? Nobody knows, but that doesn't stop it from being the leading contender for how the universe was produced.

You have no evidence for your claim that 'something cannot come from nothing.'

I really get the impression that you didn't read the part I quoted at all, because it's fairly obvious if you do.

And yet you have been unable to literally write a single word describing why you think this.

No, that's not what I said at all, so I don't see how it could seem that way.

No, you said this:

That's what I'm asking you to support. We can all read your posts, you know?

You asked me a question, I answered it. That's how it works.

You seem to have a LOT of trouble following a string of posts, because this isn't what I was refering to at all. I was refering to this: It just exists.

Brilliant. That was well worth the wait. I can now get a good grasp of your reasoning and can formulate an argument against it.

Baron: Describe how mass can exist in zero dimensions.
Argumemnon: It just exists.

Praise the Lord, a revelation!

Now perhaps if you slowed down and took time to read what I actually post we'd be getting somewhere. A while ago you denied that I posted something a full post after I did that very thing.

Perhaps in future you could mark your answers with a highlight or something, because I fail to see how else they can be distinguished.

No you don't, because pelicans actually have nothing to do with information theory. I'll just assume you have no idea what it entails, then.

Okay then, add that to the prodigious list of unfounded assumptions you have made in this thread.

 

[MikeG]

Does anyone else always read the thread title as "I live in an infantile universe"?

 

[Belz...]

You mean aside from the multiple times when I answered directly such as

and

and

I have already addressed those. Those are NOT answers as they do not provide a mechanism. I can only surmise that you simply have no idea how something could come from nothing. Is that a fair assessment?

You have no evidence for your claim that 'something cannot come from nothing.'

What a bizarre statement. How do you have evidence for a negative, especially after I've explained that it's a statement of logic, not fact? You're simply trying to manipulate the conversation to hide the fact that you have no idea how to support your own claims.

And yet you have been unable to literally write a single word describing why you think this.

And that's another lie. Why do you lie? Everybody can go back and read my posts and see that this isn't true.

Baron: Describe how mass can exist in zero dimensions.
Argumemnon: It just exists.

Praise the Lord, a revelation!

Well try this: describe how mass can exist in four dimensions. Good luck.

You've not given any reason why lack of spacial and temporal dimensions would somehow prevent something from existing other than your say-so.

Okay then, add that to the prodigious list of unfounded assumptions you have made in this thread.

No, I think I'll just add that to the prodigious list of things you don't know about physics.

 

[baron]

I have already addressed those. Those are NOT answers as they do not provide a mechanism. I can only surmise that you simply have no idea how something could come from nothing. Is that a fair assessment?



What a bizarre statement. How do you have evidence for a negative, especially after I've explained that it's a statement of logic, not fact? You're simply trying to manipulate the conversation to hide the fact that you have no idea how to support your own claims.



And that's another lie. Why do you lie? Everybody can go back and read my posts and see that this isn't true.



Well try this: describe how mass can exist in four dimensions. Good luck.

You've not given any reason why lack of spacial and temporal dimensions would somehow prevent something from existing other than your say-so.



No, I think I'll just add that to the prodigious list of things you don't know about physics.

This says it all. I think I've been trolled. So you know, well done.

 

[Belz...]

This says it all. I think I've been trolled. So you know, well done.

What is it in that post that's trolling?

I've been exceptionally patient with you, even when you ignored things I posted just one post before you denied that they were there, asked you to describe a mechanism for your claim, which you've been unable to provide, unlike me, and tried in vain to get you to grasp your own fallacies, such as your unsupported claim that nothing can exist absent space or time dimensions.

That you call this trolling shows that you have no idea what trolling is, especially given your own condescending tone and dismissals.

You're just looking for an out because you know you have no argument.

 

[baron]

What is it in that post that's trolling?

I've been exceptionally patient with you, even when you ignored things I posted just one post before you denied that they were there, asked you to describe a mechanism for your claim, which you've been unable to provide, unlike me, and tried in vain to get you to grasp your own fallacies, such as your unsupported claim that nothing can exist absent space or time dimensions.

That you call this trolling shows that you have no idea what trolling is, especially given your own condescending tone and dismissals.

You're just looking for an out because you know you have no argument.

Ignorance is one thing but I think Dunning and Kruger would need to revise their theory if they read your posts. I recommend you make a start by reading a book, a pertinent one being 'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss and his follow-up, just released, 'The Greatest Story Ever Told - So Far: Why Are We Here?', which I am starting now. Unfortunately I can't help you with your lunatic claims such as 'Mass exists therefore it exists in zero dimensions'.

 

[Belz...]

Ignorance is one thing but I think Dunning and Kruger would need to revise their theory if they read your posts. I recommend you make a start by reading a book, a pertinent one being 'A Universe From Nothing' by Lawrence Krauss and his follow-up, just released, 'The Greatest Story Ever Told - So Far: Why Are We Here?', which I am starting now. Unfortunately I can't help you with your lunatic claims such as 'Mass exists therefore it exists in zero dimensions'.

You can be as unpleasant and condescending as you want but none of that changes the fact that you had no argument.

Face it: you based your side of the conversation on the fact that you had 40 books on QM, but you can't even be bothered to explain in simple terms how something can come from nothing, which leads me to believe that you don't know half as much as you want to pretend on the topic.

Or... we could stop playing this pissing match and address the actual topic.

- What is the mechanism through which something can come from nothing? "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer, baron.

- Do you understand how information theory addresses your earlier comments?

- Explain how the lack of dimensions means something does not exist.

It's really simple: stop trying to make the conversation about me or you, and just go with the questions.

 

[baron]

You can be as unpleasant and condescending as you want but none of that changes the fact that you had no argument.

Face it: you based your side of the conversation on the fact that you had 40 books on QM, but you can't even be bothered to explain in simple terms how something can come from nothing, which leads me to believe that you don't know half as much as you want to pretend on the topic.

Or... we could stop playing this pissing match and address the actual topic.

- What is the mechanism through which something can come from nothing? "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer, baron.

For the love of Christ, I answered your question directly at least three times and not only that, I requoted those answers!

- Do you understand how information theory addresses your earlier comments?

- Explain how the lack of dimensions means something does not exist.

It's really simple: stop trying to make the conversation about me or you, and just go with the questions.

I'm tired of answering your questions and won't be doing so any more. You repeatedly made statements which you refuse to justify or even expand upon. You haven't written one word in justification of your claims, instead turning the question around to me who, like a fool, answers it. Just like when you stated randomly that mass can exist in zero dimensions and when I ask you to back up that claim, state "It just does!" and demand that I answer some new question on how mass exists in four dimensions.

Maybe refamiliarise yourself with the spirit of this site. You make a claim, you justify it. You don't make a claim then cry, "Well, it's just is!" then start demanding people answer your questions. Start with your original claim that 'something cannot come from nothing'. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Belz...]

For the love of Christ, I answered your question directly at least three times and not only that, I requoted those answers!

For the love of Darth Vader, I told you each time that those are NOT ANSWERS. "I can't explain it to you but believe me, it doesn't violate the laws of physics" isn't an answer to ANY question.

 

[baron]

For the love of Darth Vader, I told you each time that those are NOT ANSWERS. "I can't explain it to you but believe me, it doesn't violate the laws of physics" isn't an answer to ANY question.

So you've stooped to actually fabricating my answers now. I expected nothing more.

 

[Belz...]

So you've stooped to actually fabricating my answers now.

How is asking you to answer a simple question "fabricating" your answers? You're not making any sense. You've told me that you can't express it mathematically, which is not what I asked, that you can only express it mathematically, which is not true, and that some smart people say it doesn't violate the laws of physics, which doesn't answer the question.

You clearly have no idea how something could come from nothing, despite your earlier claims of knowing a lot about the topic.

At least you've given me one answer: you have no intention of discussing the topic, but would rather we discuss each other.

 

[Steve]

baron/Argumemnon... I have to give you guys lots of credit. Your"discussion" seems to have dissuaded slipknot0129 from continuing his spam in this thread.

 

[Belz...]

That's a good point.

Baron, how about we have a chat in the near-death experiences thread?