• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

We disagree about OWS, let's leave it at that...

What is it about Communism that requires you to kill people?

As with most political ideologies you can either persuade or you can coerce. Given that most people are generally not persuaded by Communism (look at Communist parties' electoral records), Communists need to coerce. Sometimes it starts gently such as with suspensions of elections by the "vanguard party" after it seizes power in a bloody/bloodless coup, and sometimes it needs to become even more coercive when people refuse to leave their property or live on collective farms. And when people start writing letters, newspapers, pamphlets etc... complaining of the lack of freedoms and the fact that Communism isn't making people happier, they need to be closed down and censored. Secret police need to infiltrate large groups to make sure no one's whispering against the regime and very soon it will appear that large numbers of people are even more fed up with what's going on and have to incarcerated and "re-educated".

Those are the nice regimes. The more paranoid and heavy handed ones just cut a few corners and start blasting all suspects.
 
Did you mean to say Soviet spies existed? Because, of course, that's true. But a communist spy? Communism is just an ideology. An opinion. And voters are free to elect their own representatives with their own beliefs, at least in theory.

Voters don't elect spies, so what the hell are you even talking about?
 
Voters don't elect spies, so what the hell are you even talking about?

From what I've been able to piece together, madfoot seems to be arguing that because communism is only an ideology then it is therefore impossible for somebody with that ideology to take actions designed to further the aims of that ideology, because of voters somehow.

:confused:
 
Did you mean to say Soviet spies existed? Because, of course, that's true. But a communist spy? Communism is just an ideology. An opinion. And voters are free to elect their own representatives with their own beliefs, at least in theory.

I see paranoia is rampant on JREF too!
 
Did you mean to say Soviet spies existed? Because, of course, that's true. But a communist spy? Communism is just an ideology. ~~~

And because it's a ideology you get red diaper babies raised to be more loyal to the ideology (and by extension the government professing that ideology) than the nation they are nominal citizens of.
They become agents of the Soviet - "Soviet spies" in the vernacular, loyal to the KGB and not to the government of the representatives elected by the Australian people (or the American people if may be the case)
 
Last edited:
I see paranoia is rampant on JREF too!
On this very forum we have Ron Paul fanboys who think the government is poisoning us with chemtrails, 9/11 was an inside job, a group called the New World Order is plotting to control the world, all kinds of crazy Federal Reserve conspiracies, NAFTA will result in a North American Union with the Amero as its currency, a NAFTA superhighway will destroy the US as we know it, the Council on Foreign Relations secretly rules the US, etc etc.

Yes, paranoia is rampant on the JREF, and almost all of it is from Ronulans.
 
I've never heard this at all. Are you jerking his chain?

Clearly you've never looked at Marxist theory at all. Marx theorized that communism would evolve naturally from industrialism, that the flawed and failing capitalist society would eventually be replaced by a successful, perfect communist society.

If you look at the Marxist-theoretical characteristics of this perfect communist society, you will see that it only works if the members of the society are perfect people. In theory, these perfect communists will emerge naturally, concurrent with the emergence of their perfect communist society.

If you look at history, you will see many heartbreaking examples of what happens when people try to implement communism in practice, with imperfect people.
 
Communism is an ideology, not a nationality. How can a communist infiltrate a government?
From what I've been able to piece together, madfoot seems to be arguing that because communism is only an ideology then it is therefore impossible for somebody with that ideology to take actions designed to further the aims of that ideology, because of voters somehow.

:confused:

Madfoot is presumably playing naive.

Communism, like Capitalism, like Democrats, like Republicans, like Libertarians, like every other ideology takes ideas that people turn into political action. It is the same thing that has been done in any political system ever. People take ideas, and turn them into political action.

Communism and Capitalism are no different. Every economic system requires a political component for it to function and vice versa.
 
This is part of the problem that the supporters of OWS don't understand. It isn't just "right wingers" who don't like the group and think they are a disorganised mob with no perceptible aims, no identifiable leaders, and nothing to offer a civilised political debate. There was a smattering of empathy for them, in their early days, from civic leaders, business leaders, union leaders, and many other people who could have provided them support and guidance.

And they had one of the best marketing slogans in recent memory.

What did they do with it? They pissed it all down the drain and united everyone--leftists, centrists, rightists--business people and unions--educators and police--renters and property owners--net debtors and net creditors--against them. This is practically a first in the history of political movements. The OWS and the various Occupy movement have almost deliberately marginalised themselves into the same category as the Aryan Nations, LaRouchists, the Ku Klux Klan, and the Marxist-Leninists. None of those starry-eyed sociology students from upstate New York are ever going to include their participation in this train wreck on their resume without a substantial disclaimer about their withdrawal before it degenerated into a howling pack of violent criminals.

Those who sympathised with them the most and felt that there ought to be more accountability for corporate America should be the ones most angered by their antics. It is those people who were primarily betrayed by the bottle-throwers, graffiti-sprayers, and looters.

Bravo for what? He just made a comparison to the KKK! Yeah! Bravo to that! WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO! Bravo!

Sure, there's a fair amount that is not valid. OWS never "degenerated into a howling pack of violent criminals." It just did not set controls to stop the violence from those members that did engage in it, and the KKK references are more about associating a group that he does not like with a group that is easily dismissed as wrong thereby allowing the group in question to be easily lumped into the 'wrong group' category without serious analysis. which is the same reason why pretty much everything that people have not liked over the years have been related to Hitler.

The whole post was not invalid however, and the parts that are not get to the heart of the issue.

OWS started out with a great slogan and message. "We are the 99%," advocated that the policies of the Country should more reflect the needs and betterment of the whole of society which improves the financial state and strength of the whole Country. Instead of pursuing the lobbying pressure of the 1% which has only reduced vitality of our Country, including for the 1%.

That is a message that can speak to everyone in the Nation. It was an issue that was previously known about, but was not being addressed, and OWS can rightly be credited with bringing that important issue to the forefront of debate. Which was evident by the initial support for OWS from young and old, East and West, poor and rich.


However it was the subsequent collective decisions by the organizers of OWS that overwhelmingly reduced the credibility, favorability, and survivability of the OWS movement. OWS made a decision to be purposefully negligent in their ability to control violence, radicalism, and abuse by their members because they did not want to deal with the difficulty of having to control themselves.

Without any leaders, without any effective means of controlling themselves, and by making a decision to make their struggle a fight against police instead of a decision to work with them, OWS movements throughout the Country encouraged a habitual pattern of violence. Including assaults, rape, vandalism, and murders. OWS'a lack of control in preventing their members from attacking people, churches, and those that initially supported them oly led to their further alienation.

The lack of control diluted and subverted their message as well. Instead of sticking to a widely accepted message of advocating for more sensible political and economic policies, OWS made the grave mistake of allowing Anarchists and Communists to join the movement who only wanted to destroy the system we live in, not fix it.


When Stilicho comments that, "There was a smattering of empathy for them, in their early days, from civic leaders, business leaders, union leaders, and many other people who could have provided them support and guidance... Those who sympathized with them the most and felt that there ought to be more accountability for corporate America should be the ones most angered by their antics. It is those people who were primarily betrayed by the bottle-throwers, graffiti-sprayers, and looters."

He is talking about how OWS could have become a serious political force, and there were people who were willing to help them do that, but because those involved with OWS chose to not stop the "bottle-throwers, graffiti-sprayers, and looters," who were part of their movement, they allowed the whole movement to crumble. Which alsodamaged any future movement who wants to take up the genuine goals of supporting the 99% by being negatively associated with the negligent and violent actions of the OWS movement of the past.
 
On this very forum we have Ron Paul fanboys who think the government is poisoning us with chemtrails, 9/11 was an inside job, a group called the New World Order is plotting to control the world, all kinds of crazy Federal Reserve conspiracies, NAFTA will result in a North American Union with the Amero as its currency, a NAFTA superhighway will destroy the US as we know it, the Council on Foreign Relations secretly rules the US, etc etc.

Yes, paranoia is rampant on the JREF, and almost all of it is from Ronulans.

I'm sorry, I wasn't the one fantasizing about communist spies in this thread, so I resent you paint Ron Paul supporters with a broad brush.

Madfoot is presumably playing naive.

Communism, like Capitalism, like Democrats, like Republicans, like Libertarians, like every other ideology takes ideas that people turn into political action. It is the same thing that has been done in any political system ever. People take ideas, and turn them into political action.

Communism and Capitalism are no different. Every economic system requires a political component for it to function and vice versa.

And we don't call Democrats or Republicans in government spies. That's my point.
 
I'm sorry, I wasn't the one fantasizing about communist spies in this thread, so I resent you paint Ron Paul supporters with a broad brush.
That's the finest brush available for painting Ron Paul supporters, who IMHAO comprise >85% of the conspiracy theorists on this board.
 
I'm sorry, I wasn't the one fantasizing about communist spies in this thread, so I resent you paint Ron Paul supporters with a broad brush.



And we don't call Democrats or Republicans in government spies. That's my point.

That's because they are not spies. Spies gather information, a talent people elected to government lack.
And you are the only one characterising them as "spies", when they are clearly "agents": people working to advance the agenda of their controllers
Democrats for George Soros.
Republicans for the Koch Brothers.
(I thought everyone knew that)
 
I'm sorry, I wasn't the one fantasizing about communist spies in this thread

Do you deny that the Soviet Union had spies? Or do you just refuse to acknowledge the label "communist spy" as being an accurate description of them?

And we don't call Democrats or Republicans in government spies. That's my point.

A point which has zero relevance, since we never had any hostile foreign countries ruled by Democratic or Republican parties who might send spies here.
 
On this very forum we have Ron Paul fanboys who think the government is poisoning us with chemtrails, 9/11 was an inside job, a group called the New World Order is plotting to control the world, all kinds of crazy Federal Reserve conspiracies, NAFTA will result in a North American Union with the Amero as its currency, a NAFTA superhighway will destroy the US as we know it, the Council on Foreign Relations secretly rules the US, etc etc.

Yes, paranoia is rampant on the JREF, and almost all of it is from Ronulans.

I have nothing to do with those people, Wildcat... let's get that straight now! Check some of my other posts and you will see criticism towards 9/11 "truth" and all other conspiracy theories. I am far from paranoid. I actually have a total abhorrance toward those who subscribe to the fringe!

However, people have a right to assemble! People have a right to grievance! People have a right to speak, and people have a right to stand up against what they feel is wrong even if it's not really wrong!
 
Would the phrase "Nazi spy" trigger a pedantic, knee-jerk response?
 
Do you think Oswald acted alone in shooting JFK, and that the Warren Commission was essentially correct?

Yes.

And it's not about whether I think so. It's what has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
From what I've been able to piece together, madfoot seems to be arguing that because communism is only an ideology then it is therefore impossible for somebody with that ideology to take actions designed to further the aims of that ideology, because of voters somehow.

:confused:

Is there such a thing as Capitalist Spies?
 
I have nothing to do with those people, Wildcat... let's get that straight now! Check some of my other posts and you will see criticism towards 9/11 "truth" and all other conspiracy theories. I am far from paranoid. I actually have a total abhorrance toward those who subscribe to the fringe!

However, people have a right to assemble! People have a right to grievance! People have a right to speak, and people have a right to stand up against what they feel is wrong even if it's not really wrong!

Congrats on your brave defence of something that nobody is against.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom