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We are all Russians

Skeptic said:
Well, epekepe, there are two types of people in this world, as we've seen after 9/11.

There are those who see the butchery of hundreds of children, the blowing up of passanger airlines, the suicide bombing, and the destruction of skyscrapers as horrific.

And there are those who see it as excusable... as long, of course, as it is done by someone who they like, or whose cause they feel sympathy for, however misguided.

Strangely, the latter type, the moral morons, also seem to think they are infinitely superior in their "compassion" and "understanding" to the rest of us "brainwashed" people. Don't ask me, I don't understand why, either.

But then again, in case there are any Russians here, let me first say I am appalled and disgusted of this horrible act of terror, and second, that those who would "explain" to you how it's all your fault, are not the kind of people you would want support from in the first place.

From experience, the more outraged at your "war crimes" and "illegal actions" actions these self-satisfied pricks are, the more likely it is that you are doing something right in your fight against the terroirsts; while if you are suddenly congratulated by them on your "humane and peaceful solution", it's a red light--it usually means you have chosen appeasement, surrender, and dishonor.
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Mostly, this post makes me feel happy and optimistic that not all heads are firmly entrenched behind sphincters. I've been wondering about that, which is why I took a sabbatical from this forum for several months.

However, I continue to wonder why there are so many popular misspellings of my name. It is simple. "epepke" "e" is my first initial, and "pepke" is my last name. "Pepke" sounds like a breakfast cereal from the 1950s: "Pepke, the key to pep!" It's also a common surname in Pomerania, wherever the hell that it these days.

On the other hand, your spelling is palindromic. I wish I had a palindromic name. I don't even have any decent anagrams of my name, unless you count "Me prick pee."
 
Tmy said:

Can someone tell me of a situation were we are fighting terror that doesnt directly effect us???
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Haven't you claimed that very thing about Iraq? That Saddam is a madman, but doesn't affect us?
 
"Thinking of the victims, the perpetrators, and the near future, I felt species grief, then species shame, then species fear.”
Martin Amis, after September 11 2001.


It may be simple Chechens doing this. Maybe the thinking in Chechen minds is that by targeting kids, they have newly shocked world weary Russians into demanding Putin leaves Chechnya. If so, they have miscalculated badly by committing such an horrendous act. The Russians will want revenge, and it will be the Chechen kids turn to die next, with no CNN cameras to capture the grief of the Chechen parents.

I notice al-Q has already been placed in the frame.
Call me cynical but I wonder if certain Americans are selling 9/11 as a franchise business now.
 
Gem said:
Rule #1: Do NOT bomb civilian cities with artillery and bombs.
Rule #2: Don't occupy land that wants indepedence.
Rule #3: Keep a reign on the military, to make sure they do not commit war crimes.

Russia did not obey these rules when they went into chechenya.

Read about Russia in Chechenya.

You kill one of us, we kill one of yours. An eye for an eye.

Gem
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This is unbelievable.
Russia didn't "go into Chechnya". Chechnya is part of Russia!

I guess what you're saying is that terrorists should be appeased, and they should not be fought. For that, you would get exponentially more terrorism.

Russia did leave Chechnya alone for a while after it's troops lost Grozny in 1995. But then Cechnya imposed Islamic law (sharia) and started to destabilize the other provinces around it. Russia had no choice but to go in and put down the rebellion.

You just don't get it. Islamic extremists don't just want to be left alone to abuse and torment each other. Their goal is for the entire world to be under their thumb. And you want them to be appeased.

Friggin' unbelievable.
 
demon said:

I notice al-Q has already been placed in the frame.
Call me cynical but I wonder if certain Americans are selling 9/11 as a franchise business now.
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:confused:
 
Skeptic said:
Well, epekepe, there are two types of people in this world, as we've seen after 9/11.

There are those who see the butchery of hundreds of children, the blowing up of passanger airlines, the suicide bombing, and the destruction of skyscrapers as horrific.

And there are those who see it as excusable... as long, of course, as it is done by someone who they like, or whose cause they feel sympathy for, however misguided.

Strangely, the latter type, the moral morons, also seem to think they are infinitely superior in their "compassion" and "understanding" to the rest of us "brainwashed" people. Don't ask me, I don't understand why, either.

But then again, in case there are any Russians here, let me first say I am appalled and disgusted of this horrible act of terror, and second, that those who would "explain" to you how it's all your fault, are not the kind of people you would want support from in the first place.

From experience, the more outraged at your "war crimes" and "illegal actions" actions these self-satisfied pricks are, the more likely it is that you are doing something right in your fight against the terroirsts; while if you are suddenly congratulated by them on your "humane and peaceful solution", it's a red light--it usually means you have chosen appeasement, surrender, and dishonor.
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In a weird way, the more horrific the terrorism, the more sympathy for the terrorist cause you hear from certain quarters (The Guaridan, The Nation, etc.)

It goes on the logic that the reason the terrorists did such a thing is that they were driven to it by "desperation."

People ask, why does terrorism continue?

It works...
 
The EU is already blaming the Russians for the deaths. From CNN :

The European Union directed veiled criticism at Russia's handling of the crisis, saying it regretted the violence and bloodshed.

"It's very difficult to judge from a distance whether the right decision was taken or not," said Bot, [Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot, speaking on behalf of the European Union] whose country holds the EU's rotating presidency. He apparently referred to Russian forces' decision to storm the school where the militants took their hostages.
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CBL
 
A friend's little girl started school on Wednesday, she was very excited, been going on about it for weeks. Her dad came in late so he and his wife could walk her down to the school, like a lot of parents. She had to be called back for a good-bye kiss in the playground, she was so keen, felt so safe. Nothing can express the horror of this.
 
from WildCat:
Russia didn't "go into Chechnya". Chechnya is part of Russia!
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And this is because of what? The expressed desire of the Chechen people? The borders recognised by the UN? Your atlas? It's not ethnically Russian. It's relationship with Russia has been as serf to master from the initial conquest. After the fall-out from the ex-USSR died down, Russia had to regain control of Chechnya militarily. (Shades of the French in Indo-China.) Is that why it's Russian, because Russia regained military control?

The behaviour of the Russians in Chechnya has been appalling. A situation that was bad - the Chechen population haven't been given a real say by Russians, nationalists or Islamists - has been made worse. By a President that wants to prove himself a hard man, and an ill-disciplined army.
Haven't you claimed that very thing about Iraq? That Saddam is a madman, but doesn't affect us?
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Are you claiming that the war in Iraq was originally about terrorism?
 
CBL4 said:
The EU is already blaming the Russians for the deaths. From CNN :


CBL
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Well, I was right about even this failing to wake the EU from it's slumber. It will probably take nothing short of a nuke going off in Paris or Bonn.

According to witnesses, and the BBC, the school was stormed only after several explosions were heard and a group of hostages broke some windows and made a break for it.

How any intelligent person could even hint that it's the Russians fault just disgusts me, and makes me fear what the future has in store. The militants will see this as a sign of weakness, and grow even bolder in their attacks.

Ben Bot needs to pull his head out of his a$$.
 
This is unbelievable.
Russia didn't "go into Chechnya". Chechnya is part of Russia!
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So? You could go into Florida, and it still is part of the United States. What I meant is that they sent tanks and soldiers to Chechenya.

I guess what you're saying is that terrorists should be appeased, and they should not be fought. For that, you would get exponentially more terrorism.
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Please tell me where I said that? What I said was that the horrific act of killing school children was for revenge, because the Chechen were also victims when Russian troops moved into their land. What I was saying is that you shouldn't commit WAR CRIMES and attrocities when you use your military.

Russia did leave Chechnya alone for a while after it's troops lost Grozny in 1995. But then Cechnya imposed Islamic law (sharia) and started to destabilize the other provinces around it. Russia had no choice but to go in and put down the rebellion.
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So they were just suppose to forgive and forget? Or did the Russian troops behaved ideally before their retreat/defeat?

You just don't get it. Islamic extremists don't just want to be left alone to abuse and torment each other. Their goal is for the entire world to be under their thumb. And you want them to be appeased.

Friggin' unbelievable.
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Yes, I want them to be appeased because I think Russia mis-used their military in Chechenya. Nowhere did I think or say they should be appeased. Strawman, I say.

Let me state my position clearly: If you don't want to create more terrorism and extremism, don't do the mistakes the Russians did in Chechenya. But that is no excuse for what happened in that school. I'm as angry as ever to see such needless, pointless hatred and bloodshed.

Gem
 
demon said:
I notice al-Q has already been placed in the frame.
Call me cynical but I wonder if certain Americans are selling 9/11 as a franchise business now.
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Personally, I'd like to call you a lot more than cynical.

At least with the terrorists, we have a pretty good idea of their motives and intent....something which, I'm sorry to say, isn't quite as obvious regarding some of my fellow compatriots...
 
Gem said:
Please tell me where I said that? What I said was that the horrific act of killing school children was for revenge, because the Chechen were also victims when Russian troops moved into their land. What I was saying is that you shouldn't commit WAR CRIMES and attrocities when you use your military.
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Bull. You said as much here:
Rule #2: Don't occupy land that wants indepedence.
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That's appeasement by any stretch of the imagination.

If the rebels hide in civilian areas and use them as shields, it's on their head for the deaths that result. The "war crimes and atrocities" are being committed by the rebels. You saw more of them today, and you're turning the criminals into victims.

Apologists like yourself who parse words and seek valid reasons where none exist to justify atrocities such as what transpired today are seen by terrorists as signs of weakness and an invitation to do more of the same.

"shouldn't commit atrocities when you use your military"... What the hell do you think war is? It's one atrocity after another. Countries have armys to kill people and destroy things. By your definition, any military action is a war crime.

War may be an atrocity, but the alternative is much worse. And that alternative is not peace in this instance, it's subjugation and terrorism. And hundreds of dead children who were the intended targets here, not unintentional "collateral damage".
 
WildCat said:
This is unbelievable.
Russia didn't "go into Chechnya". Chechnya is part of Russia!
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...Well, kinda depends on how you define "part of"...

From the Free Dictionary site:

Chechen society has traditionally been organized around many autonomous local clans, called teips. Even today, many Chechens consider themselves loyal to their teip above all, one reason why it has been difficult to forge a united political front against Russia.

From the 7th century through the 16th century Chechens and Ingushs were Christians.

Imperial Russian forces began moving into Chechnya in 1830 to secure Russia's borders with the Ottoman Empire. The Chechens resisted fiercely, led by national hero Imam Shamil, but Chechnya was finally incorporated into the Russian Empire in 1859.

The Chechnya-Ingushetia region received status of an autonomous republic within the Soviet Union in 1936. During World War II, the Soviet government accused the Chechens of cooperating with the Nazi invaders. On orders from Stalin, the entire population of the republic was exiled to Kazakhstan. Over a quarter died. The Chechens were allowed to return only in 1957, four years after Stalin's death in 1953.
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So if the Chechens don't exactly feel Russian, well....and Russian soldiers have never been known to respect the laws of war--fight like the devil and die bravely in great numbers, but in-between not under much control.

That does not excuse the barbarity of the actions that took place nor should it, but considering the history, is it any surprise that the barbarians were honed by history?
 
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