Wave goodbye to Internet freedom

The closest there is to a legitimate argument against it, if you don't know any better, is that there is technological limitations to the amount of data that can be passed at any one time. The problem with that argument is (1) it is a temporary limitation as technology improves and (2) it is really just an excuse for the ISP's to defer the cost of improving their infrastructure until a later date. I'm sorry, but continuing to provide crappy service is not a good excuse for jacking up prices due to artificial scarcity.

So, tell me. What decent arguments are there against regulation for content tiering.

This is ultimately true, but there's an additional caveat. The ISP's (specifically Comcast) regularly oversell areas. They sell a large number of people fast broadband connections and are surprised that people are actually wanting to use that broadband connection to access the internet. To make matters worse, their ISP customers are actually using that connection to stream content from competitors! How outrageous!

Ahem.

The fault here isn't Netflix or other content providers that use a large amount of bandwidth. Netflix pays for bandwidth as well. It's the ISP fault for selling people fast connections but not having the infrastructure capable of sustaining more than a small fraction of that bandwidth being used at any given time. The scarcity isn't artificial, it was a result of poor planning.
 
Let me tell you all a story that seems to relate to this topic.

Do you remember the ERA? The Equal Rights Amendment to the US Constitution?

My mother was opposed to it. She heard Phyllis Schlafly on the talk show circuit, and after hearing her was absolutely convinced that ERA required, explicitly in its text, unisex public toilets.

Now, the actual text of the ERA is;

"THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT

Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification. "

Nothing in there at all about unisex toilets.

But she refused to believe me when I explained this to her, even after I showed her the actual text in a civics textbook. She was CERTAIN to her dying day that there was a paragraph on unisex toilets in it.

Net Neutrality seems to have suffered a similar fate. People seem to think it explicitly mandates all sorts of INSANE things. And all it does is mandate that you have to process all packets as they arrive with no preference for packets from a specific source. You can still sort traffic by class and do load shaping, but you have to do it for all sources the same.

It does not mean you HAVE to force opposing views on a user. It only means that if you have two opposing web sites that you will process the packets from each with the same rules.
 
Section 4.12 states that "Consumers do not all have the same tastes and preferences. Some may be willing to pay to minimise the risk of receiving a low quality service, for instance keen internet gamers. If traffic management was not possible at all, ISPs could not meet the demand of these quality-sensitive consumers."

This doesn't sound like anything to do with Net Neutrality. It sounds like they are writing about end-using consumers, not content providers such as (to follow the gaming example) Blizzard Entertainment. I doubt they refer to companies like Blizzard as "consumers".

Am I wrong that the non-neutral service tiers would charge the content providers more for better distribution of their content? And tiers for end-of-the-line users are a completely separate question?
 
The closest there is to a legitimate argument against it, if you don't know any better, is that there is technological limitations to the amount of data that can be passed at any one time.
That isn't an argument by itself anyway. The argument for traffic management (price discrimination, non-neutrality) is that the congestion that can otherwise result reduces total welfare (for all consumers aggregated, including those who would be willing to pay for high-tier access but are prevented from doing so), and can therefore be economically inefficient (wasteful). That is point 4.1, page 25 of the PDF I linked to already.

The problem with that argument is (1) it is a temporary limitation as technology improves
It is irrelevant if it is temporary (which is a forecast on your part). Rush hour street traffic is also "temporary" via that hand-wave--just wait until 9.30am or alternatively wait until the relevant government agency/private operator builds more roads. The loss of welfare is still here, now.

and (2) it is really just an excuse for the ISP's to defer the cost of improving their infrastructure until a later date.
You seem to argue that it is necessary to make the service (for everyone) sufficiently unsatisfying in order to provide the incentive to improve it, forswearing market (IE price) mechanisms to do that. I disagree.

I'm sorry, but continuing to provide crappy service is not a good excuse for jacking up prices due to artificial scarcity.
Calling scarcity artificial doesn't magic it away. Rejected.

So, tell me. What decent arguments are there against regulation for content tiering.
They include:

1. People want it (evidenced by their willingness to pay for it in myriad ways, rather than by their expressed opinions). (4.12 on the PDF)

2. If data carriers do not have market abuse power, it is difficult for them to harm consumers or lower total welfare/efficiency by attempting to act uncompetitively (and accordingly they have strong incentives not to). (4.15 to 4.21) If you are concerned about market power, deal with that directly

3. One sided markets (where data carriers can only charge end customers are prohibited from charging, and thus differentiating content/app providers because of net neutrality) is also wasteful, since it does not allow the content providers to place any value on who or how many end customers their output has (4.23 to 4.29)

This is not a partisan issue. A lack of network neutrality stifles innovation and kills free market.
That's one side of a two-sided debate. Prohibition of price discrimination is an innovation killer in many more ways than its absence (coffee, financial services, TV, restaurants, etc etc). Consider that the iPad and the iPhone4 are highly non-neutral WiFi/mobile data/app platforms, and then argue that they would have arrived sooner, and more cheaply if Apple had been forced to offer open architecture and all content delivery.

Conservatives should be all for insuring network neutrality and those who know what it really means are.
I don't care what "conservatives" are into. That you only (so far) respond to straw right-wing commentary that I have not even advocated indicates--again--that you are not aware of where the informed debate is.

See also:

Innovation through discrimination!? A Formal Analysis of the Net Neutrality Debate, Jan Kramer, Lukas Wiewiorra (2010)
"Our main finding is that in the long-run network discrimination will lead to more innovation. Furthermore, we compare the overall welfare effects of discriminatory practice with respect to a network neutral regime and that network discrimination is generally welfare enhancing. This is because congestion is better allocated to the congestion insensitive content providers, while providing some congestion relief to the content providers with congestion sensitive business models. However, in the short-run all content providers are worse off under network discrimination because this effciency gain is fully appropriated by the ISP through the welfare neutral priority charge."
PDF (not gated)
The Economics of Product-Line Restrictions with an Application to the Network Neutrality Debate; Hermalin, Benjamin E, Katz, Michael L (2007)

"For the case of a monopoly service provider, we find that a single-product restriction results in: (a) consumers who would otherwise have consumed a low-quality variant being excluded from the market; (b) consumers “in the middle” of the market consuming a higher and more efficient quality; and (c) consumers at the top of the market consuming a lower and less efficient quality. We find that the net welfare effects can be positive or negative, although the analysis suggests to us that harm is the more likely outcome. Moreover, consumers at the bottom of the market—the ones that a single-product restriction is typically intended to aid—are almost always harmed by the restriction.
In our duopoly analysis, imposition of a single-product restriction always reduces welfare. [ . . . ] Lastly, we find that, to the extent that the regulation is intended to eliminate low-quality products, it may fail"

PDF (not gated)
Only those with, as you say, ideological blindness view it as "all regulation is bad" and therefore network neutrality must be bad.
Rejected, as above.

When you claim--as you do--that all the arguments are on one side, it is a red flag that you have a special interest and/or are the one who is ideologially blind.
 
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I'm not going to continue dissecting this document paragraph by paragraph; let me just say that my cursory reading of it still leaves me with no "decent arguments" against Net Neutrality. If your ISP doesn't have enough bandwidth for your purpose, change ISPs to one that invests properly in infrastructure.
You didn't get very far with it. Try section 4, or see above post. Alternatively, ignore it.
 
They include:

1. People want it (evidenced by their willingness to pay for it in myriad ways, rather than by their expressed opinions). (4.12 on the PDF)
You want to talk about hand waving? That is the lamest excuse for an argument I have ever seen. I really hope they are simply repeating arguments that have been provided to them. More likely, they are conflating "traffic management" with something other than what we are talking about here.

But assuming they aren't: People want ISPs to kill innovation by making it hard for start ups to use the internet the same way as companies who can afford to pay more? They want their Netflix charges to go up? And Ofcom make that argument without any support? What's not to believe?

T2. If data carriers do not have market abuse power, it is difficult for them to harm consumers or lower total welfare/efficiency by attempting to act uncompetitively (and accordingly they have strong incentives not to). (4.15 to 4.21) If you are concerned about market power, deal with that directly
Fine, except they are referring to the UK. 4.18 is not applicable in the US as individual consumer or businesses don't have access to a real selection of ISP in any given area. And, arguably, condition 4.19 has been met in the US. Regardless, the conclusion made in 4.21 has already been proven to be false.


3. One sided markets (where data carriers can only charge end customers are prohibited from charging, and thus differentiating content/app providers because of net neutrality) is also wasteful, since it does not allow the content providers to place any value on who or how many end customers their output has (4.23 to 4.29)
Again, this theoretical argument evaporated with Comcast and Level 3.

Rejected, as above.
And now that it's been demonstrated that these arguments are bogus and somewhat naive?

When you claim--as you do--that all the arguments are on one side, it is a red flag that you have a special interest and/or are the one who is ideologially blind.
It is a red flag that I have a potential special interest and/or am possibly the one who is blind, not a guarantee.
 
People want ISPs to kill innovation by making it hard for start ups to use the internet the same way as companies who can afford to pay more? They want their Netflix charges to go up?
Apparently you misunderstand what "want" means in an economic sense. It means "value more highly than what it costs, and higher than available alternatives". Of course, everyone really wants everything to be free, but that is not available. People select, and pay for tiered service and allow themselves to be price-discriminable across the board. I already mentioned the iPhone example of an extremely popular platform that is shot through with a highly restrictive gatekeeping policy. Why isn't the Open Handset Alliance (Android) totally caning Apple (and BlackBerry)?

That does not mean people won't tell you they'd like it all free, and nowTM, but their actions determine their genuine preferences. No it isn't a hand-wave; it's as empirical as can be.

Fine, except they are referring to the UK. 4.18 is not applicable in the US as individual consumer or businesses don't have access to a real selection of ISP in any given area.
I agree that telecom services in the US are not overseen by a very viable competition policy. That is because your 1996 legislation on this was late, relative to the rest of the world, and particularly badly implemented. (see page 82 of this PDF (3MB)which is a comprehensive 2009 global study of broadband servces by Yochai Benkler, Harvard).

The relative lack of competition in US telecoms stifles innovation and kills the free market, by the way, which you didn't seem to like in post 58. The US would be better fixing that first. Some might say it takes an "all regulation is good, the more the better" type of attitude to want to correct for it with more legislation. (It might be more expedient to pass NN law than to correct the rather botched telecom competition policy . . . I don't really know. I think it would be hard to do either in the US in the coming years.)

And, arguably, condition 4.19 has been met in the US. Regardless, the conclusion made in 4.21 has already been proven to be false.
Same issue

Again, this theoretical argument evaporated with Comcast and Level 3.
Same issue again. If that is all you have, it is a complaint about market dominance of Comcast, which is the domain of competition law and policy. It is not by itself a good argument for net neutrality, unless you like to ignore unintended consequences. Nor does it invalidate the arguments advanced against net neutrality law.
 
It doesn't matter what anybody "wants."

It is clearly the case that an ISP is a "common carrier" and in fact that is established in case law already in decisions that exempt the ISP from responsibility for traffic delivered.

Now we simply have to let the ICC/FCC deal with regulating them as common carriers.
 
NN advocates certianly want ISPs to be considered common carriers (utilities), since that would obviate the need for legislation. I don't think you're correct that this is established in the US. (It isn't in many countries either, but is in Finland)
 
I felt compelled to bump this thread as I see there's a lot of misinformation about this. I saw this following post in a completely unrelated AOL article (article about Kobe Bryant actually):

LET'S FOCUS ON WHAT THE MEDIA IS NOT REPORTING!!!

Barack Obama has a "Christmas surprise" for the American people. It's based upon the FCC's self-imposed December 21 (TOMORROW!!!!) deadline to implement new Internet rules. Mr. Obama wants to take control of the Internet through FCC regulation. We're talking about YOUR Internet. YOUR ability to contact your friends. YOUR relatives. And YOUR elected representatives in government.

https://secure.conservativedonations.com/usjf_fcc/?a=5212 ACT NOW PEOPLE AND DEMAND THAT THE CONGRESS & SENATE REJECT THIS!!!
Also text from the linked website,

I agree with the United States Justice Foundation in your aggressive campaign to STOP the Obama Administration from making Internet freedom a "thing of the past."

I will NOT "wave good-bye" to my Internet freedoms. They are guaranteed by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

I strongly OPPOSE any maneuver by the Obama Administration or the Obama controlled FCC to reduce my freedoms on the Internet.

Seems many have bought into the nonsense misinformation. Never underestimate the gullibility of the internet. :rolleyes: The paranoid "we're loosing rights and Liberties" constituency on the Right never fails to entertain. :D
 
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Ah, I forgot about this thread in a flurry or work deadlines. Thanks for bumping it.
I agree that telecom services in the US are not overseen by a very viable competition policy.
Good. I'm glad we agree that this argument against network neutrality in the UK is not applicable to network neutrality in the US.

That is because your 1996 legislation on this was late, relative to the rest of the world, and particularly badly implemented. (see page 82 of this PDF (3MB)which is a comprehensive 2009 global study of broadband servces by Yochai Benkler, Harvard).
Woulda, shoulda, coulda. It's true that network infrastructure developed differently in the US than in the UK. It is to be expected, even, given that each place had its own challenges. Unless you have a nuclear-powered Delorean that can take us back in time 14+ years, there is nothing that can change that. The fact is that we are here and now and must address the current state of affairs.


Now, maybe I should have been more specific in my challenge, but I thought it was implied given the sub-forum we're on, but let me restate it more clearly now:

Is there any legitimate argument against network neutrality in the United States?
 
Let me tell you all a story that seems to relate to this topic.

Do you remember the ERA? The Equal Rights Amendment to the US Constitution?

My mother was opposed to it. She heard Phyllis Schlafly on the talk show circuit, and after hearing her was absolutely convinced that ERA required, explicitly in its text, unisex public toilets.

Now, the actual text of the ERA is;

"THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT

Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification. "

Nothing in there at all about unisex toilets.


Actually, yes, there is. “Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.”

If a man isn't allowed the same freedom to enter a women's restroom, dressing room, locker room, or similar facility that a woman is, then he is being denied “Equality of rights under the law…on account of sex.”.

That we have such separate facilities for men and women, with each being denied access to the others', is a form of sexual discrimination. There's no rational way to interpret the ERA as not prohibiting this form of discrimination. But as it happens, most people believed at the time the ERA was under consideration, that this form of discrimination is necessary and proper, and ought to be preserved; and most people still do.
 
hopefully these new rules will allow the FCC to crack down on and maybe even kill Prisonplanet, Infowars, Rense, WeAreChange, Loose Change, and all the other traitorous websites.

:)
 
I oppose net neutrality on ethical grounds. To the extent that people own the hardware infrastructure, the fact they cannot declare how it will be used, such as saying what speeds are available, is offensive. Before someone goes saying that I am some crazy corporate lover

1- I am some crazy corporate lover. got no problem with that
2- I oppose a lot of BS copyright stuff like the DMCA.
 
It is irrelevant if it is temporary (which is a forecast on your part). Rush hour street traffic is also "temporary" via that hand-wave--just wait until 9.30am or alternatively wait until the relevant government agency/private operator builds more roads. The loss of welfare is still here, now.
Bad analogy. If the rush hour traffic is bad again tomorrow, that problem is most certainly not "temporary" in the way the word was used by Upchurch.
 
I oppose net neutrality on ethical grounds. To the extent that people own the hardware infrastructure, the fact they cannot declare how it will be used, such as saying what speeds are available, is offensive. Before someone goes saying that I am some crazy corporate lover

1- I am some crazy corporate lover. got no problem with that
2- I oppose a lot of BS copyright stuff like the DMCA.
It must suck for you living in a society.
 

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