Waterfox web browser—what is this crap?

Why on earth would I bother? Edge works perfectly.

I usually have great respect for your opinions on many topics, but I'm always surprised at your willingness to support huge American corporations that simply do not have your best interests in mind. Microsoft, Google, Facebook ... all are anathema to a free and open web. More than anything else Microsoft is engaged in rent-seeking behaviour and vendor lock-in. Google and Facebook thrive on the stealthy collection of private and personal data in a basically unfettered legal environment. They have databases that would make the old East German Stasi green with envy. How do you know neither are exporting personal data from Australia to the USA?
 
...to download Chrome.
For everything. Chrome was once a great browser, but unless there's been an update that fixed it, Chrome was a bloated memory hungry leaky piece of ****.

I have literally never encountered a situation for which Edge wasn't perfectly functional.
 
Hmm...

If you think putting options under a menu icon is 'hiding' them, I suspect you may have a very different interpretation of 'hiding' to me.

Seems like a bit of a weird dummy spit.

I used the term "hide" because what is a now a standard menu icon (one that's very recent for me because I've been browsing the web for twenty years now) was in the exact same font, colour and size as the rest of the text on the page, so there was nothing there to establish it as a usable interface item aside from its shape. So I mentally ignored it when scanning the page for usable links. You know, which usually have a different colour to distinguish them from non-usable items.

It's like suddenly discovering something on your car's dashboard which for months you thought was just a painted on logo becasue it did not look like a real button actually does something useful when you touch it, like turning on all the interior lights. And here you thought the manufacturer had somehow forgotten that feature, and the only way to turn on the lights was to open the car door.
 
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I usually have great respect for your opinions on many topics, but I'm always surprised at your willingness to support huge American corporations that simply do not have your best interests in mind. Microsoft, Google, Facebook ... all are anathema to a free and open web. More than anything else Microsoft is engaged in rent-seeking behaviour and vendor lock-in. Google and Facebook thrive on the stealthy collection of private and personal data in a basically unfettered legal environment. They have databases that would make the old East German Stasi green with envy. How do you know neither are exporting personal data from Australia to the USA?
It's mostly for two reasons. First, this is just the way the internet is now and there's no point in trying to avoid it. It's more work, it makes the internet less functional, and it has a strong "old man shouts at clouds" vibe. Second, it's never been particularly clear to me why I should care.

You'll be pleased to know, though, that I have recently adopted the use of a VPN as standard for my home computers.
 
For me, the big yellow Download Waterfox button did not have links for Windows, Mac, and Linux. It determined my OS from what my browser reported and gave me the version it assumed I was looking for. Except it wasn't the version I was looking for: I wanted a version for a different OS.

My complaint is there was no visible link on that page to the page for versions for other operating systems. The idiot who designed that page hid the link behind a Javascript hamburger menu in the header area. I usually ignore the header area and skip straight to the content.

For me, that burger menu was window dressing. There's nothing to indicate it's an active control—it's exactly the same colour and relative size as the rest of the inactive text on that page. Unlike, for example, the "Download Waterfox" button, which has a noticeably different background colour and a clear indication of what it does.

Like I said in my earlier post, I don't like having to play "hunt the Wumpus" just to navigate a site.



P.S. I never use Google. They're an obnoxious 900 pound gorilla and one of the worst things to happen to the Web in the last 20 years.

It's more or less typical for software vendor websites. The download button on the website home page automatically downloads the latest stable version for the user's current operating system. This is done because many non technical users might be unaware of their operating system and CPU architecture. For power users there is a downloads page where they can choose the version and operating system. So nothing unusual here.

Even being myself an IT person I consider this a good approach, sometimes I just want the recommended version of the application for my device without digging in a huge list of builds of versions for different OSes / CPU architectures / etc.
 
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It's mostly for two reasons. First, this is just the way the internet is now and there's no point in trying to avoid it. It's more work, it makes the internet less functional, and it has a strong "old man shouts at clouds" vibe. Second, it's never been particularly clear to me why I should care.

My counter to both points is you'll never know what you could lose until you've lost it, and then it may be too late ever to recover. Ceding control of the World Wide Web, which currently runs mostly on open standards which allows countless people to write software that works for it, to huge private companies brings with it the risk said companies could decide, jointly or severally, that they're no longer going to support features we take for granted. Such as being able to connect with almost any web site we want to. Or sending email, because they decide email's not worth supporting any more.

Not only that, but there's more money to be made by railroading you into using their proprietary apps to communicate over the internet. Who knows? Maybe the web as we know it could disappear into a GoogleNet and a FacebookNet, and heaven help you if Google or Facebook decides to cancel your account.

For me, two cases in point. I used to be able to run an email server of my own, on my IP address, to send and receive mail directly from and to my own computer. I can no longer do that because ISPs have decided I shall not (they block the ports at their border routers) so now I have to pay a third party to host email for me. This despite the fact I have the technical know-how to operate an email server in a secure manner.

Second, as each generation of gateway device comes to me from my ISP, its functionality gets worse and worse. The latest device I got was so brain dead I had to put it into bridged mode and use a third-party device to regain functionality I lost when they stopped supporting the old device. (Indeed, the term "ISP" is now a misnomer: what they really want to do is simply be a WSP: "Web Service Portal," and deny me access to all the other services available on the internet. )

What happens when the next device won't even give me a bridged mode? Will I have to shut down my home PBX because I can no longer get inbound SIP connections? Shut down my private NextCloud instance because I can no longer get HTTP/HTTPS packets to my server? Shut down a VNC bridge I built for a third party because I can no longer even ssh in to my own network from the outside?

Now these example are from the point of view as someone who cut his chops working from the early days of the internet. Most of what I describe are probably out of your knowledge realm and experience, and so of course are not applicable to you. But try to think of other activities you're involved in. Now imagine the entire supply chain for equipment for that activity getting taken over by one or two American companies, who then decide they just don't want the hassle of dealing with Australia. Would you care then?

To me, "it's never been particularly clear to me why I should care" is alarming, because I rather doubt you'd say the same about your Australian government. Am I being paranoid? Well, Americans got a real wake-up call with Trump when he enabled the Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade. Now millions of American women can no longer get easy access to abortion.

Why I think you should care is that ceding control of the Web—currently in the public domain with open standards—to huge American corporations is that it carries similar risks of reducing your ability to use the web as you do today, and possibly making it impossible to do certain things.

You'll be pleased to know, though, that I have recently adopted the use of a VPN as standard for my home computers.
That's good. But why, given that it's never been particularly clear to you why you should care? (I'm being rather facetious with this question.) What will you do when various powers decide running a VPN is a criminal offense? It has happened already in some parts of the world.
 
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It's more or less typical for software vendor websites. The download button on the website home page automatically downloads the latest stable version for the user's current operating system. This is done because many non technical users might be unaware of their operating system and CPU architecture. For power users there is a downloads page where they can choose the version and operating system. So nothing unusual here.

Even being myself an IT person I consider this a good approach, sometimes I just want the recommended version of the application for my device without digging in a huge list of builds of versions for different OSes / CPU architectures / etc.

I agree with your assessment. It's convenient for the large majority of users coming to the site, and even for me—most of the time.

Other times I want to initiate the download using curl or wget from a different computer, or download a Windows version to my Linux system so I can write it to a flash drive and carry it with me to a friend's system. For that I need access to their main downloads page. In the case of Waterfox, a combination of poor web design and some incompetence on my part made finding that page difficult, or at least more difficult than I think it should have been.
 
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My counter to both points is you'll never know what you could lose until you've lost it, and then it may be too late ever to recover. Ceding control of the World Wide Web, which currently runs mostly on open standards which allows countless people to write software that works for it, to huge private companies brings with it the risk said companies could decide, jointly or severally, that they're no longer going to support features we take for granted. Such as being able to connect with almost any web site we want to. Or sending email, because they decide email's not worth supporting any more.
Control has already been ceded. There's not a lot I can do about that except, as I said, shout at clouds (lol :rolleyes:). It's done. You lost. I for one have moved on.

Not only that, but there's more money to be made by railroading you into using their proprietary apps to communicate over the internet. Who knows? Maybe the web as we know it could disappear into a GoogleNet and a FacebookNet, and heaven help you if Google or Facebook decides to cancel your account.
I don't care whether companies make money or not. They're turning a profit? Great. Maybe they'll continue to provide the service that I am paying for. If they don't, I'll pay someone else to do it. And if they're turning a profit, and I'm not violating my terms of service, why would they stop letting me give them money? As hypotheticals go, that one's pretty far-fetched.

For me, two cases in point. I used to be able to run an email server of my own, on my IP address, to send and receive mail directly from and to my own computer. I can no longer do that because ISPs have decided I shall not (they block the ports at their border routers) so now I have to pay a third party to host email for me. This despite the fact I have the technical know-how to operate an email server in a secure manner.
Good for you. I have never had nor wanted the skills to be able to do that.

Second, as each generation of gateway device comes to me from my ISP, its functionality gets worse and worse. The latest device I got was so brain dead I had to put it into bridged mode and use a third-party device to regain functionality I lost when they stopped supporting the old device. (Indeed, the term "ISP" is now a misnomer: what they really want to do is simply be a WSP: "Web Service Portal," and deny me access to all the other services available on the internet. )
"Worse and worse" is just a synonym for "different". I have learned to use the tools they provide. When they change the tools, I work out how to use those too, since I neither have nor particularly want a choice in the matter.

What happens when the next device won't even give me a bridged mode? Will I have to shut down my home PBX because I can no longer get inbound SIP connections? Shut down my private NextCloud instance because I can no longer get HTTP/HTTPS packets to my server? Shut down a VNC bridge I built for a third party because I can no longer even ssh in to my own network from the outside?
Probably. I don't have any of that and barely know what any of it even means, so it's completely irrelevant to me. My life is not changed.

Now these example are from the point of view as someone who cut his chops working from the early days of the internet. Most of what I describe are probably out of your knowledge realm and experience, and so of course are not applicable to you. But try to think of other activities you're involved in. Now imagine the entire supply chain for equipment for that activity getting taken over by one or two American companies, who then decide they just don't want the hassle of dealing with Australia. Would you care then?
It already is. It may be news to you, but America dominates a lot of markets. Given the choice between dealing with America and dealing with China (which are the two options in this part of the world), I choose America.

To me, "it's never been particularly clear to me why I should care" is alarming, because I rather doubt you'd say the same about your Australian government. Am I being paranoid? Well, Americans got a real wake-up call with Trump when he enabled the Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade. Now millions of American women can no longer get easy access to abortion.
Then you should vote accordingly to overturn those governments that are denying people their rights, and encourage your fellow citizens to vote accordingly too. As do I. I lived through Abbott/Turnbull/Morrison, you lived through Trump, and here we both are. They were dark times indeed, but we came out of them, civilisation uncollapsed.

Why I think you should care is that ceding control of the Web—currently in the public domain with open standards—to huge American corporations is that it carries similar risks of reducing your ability to use the web as you do today, and possibly making it impossible to do certain things.
Again, it already is virtually controlled by American companies - if you think the internet is still in the public domain then you are mistaken - and if certain things are made impossible then I just have to live with not doing them any more. Do you think I could change it? Stop it? What kind of power over American corporations do you think I have? What kind of power do you think you have? I assure you, Meta and Alphabet are completely ignoring whatever principled but tiny stand you think you are making. It's not a hill I choose to die on.

That's good. But why, given that it's never been particularly clear to you why you should care? (I'm being rather facetious with this question.) What will you do when various powers decide running a VPN is a criminal offense? It has happened already in some parts of the world.
Again, I started using it because it's useful to me. If it stops being useful, I will stop using it. If it's made illegal, I will stop using it. I don't have a choice.

Look, you are free to protest in any way you like. I, personally, don't see the point. The tools that these giant American companies provide are useful to me, so I use them. Whatever data has been harvested on me is already buried very thoroughly in data warehouses, and has been for decades. You too. My life is not affected by it.

So again - it is not at all clear to me why I should care.
 
Control has already been ceded. There's not a lot I can do about that except, as I said, shout at clouds (lol :rolleyes:). It's done. You lost. I for one have moved on.

(Much other relevant content snipped.)


As I said earlier, I have a lot of respect for you and your positions, so what you've written here is good cause for me to re-evaluate mine. It won't be a fun exercise, for it's possible I'm wrong and I'll have to admit it.

If you don't hear back from me on this for two or three days it's not because I've rejected your position; it's more likely because I'm trying to figure out where I should go on this. At this point even admitting you have valid points is challenging my worldview.

Or maybe I'll go all (insert name of well-known stubborn poster from the MS Estonia threads) on you and engage in a long drawn out squabble over an increasing number of finer and finer points.
 
And why should I have to check a freaking Burger menu on a desktop? Those are for browsers with a limited screen area. A desktop has more real estate, so just show me the bloody links already! I really don't like playing "hunt the Wumpus" just to navigate a site.

I prefer the less cluttered look so fine with options being in a dropdown menu - which is all what a hamburger menu is and it's such a ubiquitous feature now I think not using them is making life harder for folk.

I do object when there are dropdowns after dropdowns to find something, but they've kept theirs simple and well labelled so overall it's a good choice - in my opinion. (You are of course entitled to your own opinion no matter how wrong it is because it doesn't match my opinion! ;)
 
My counter to both points is you'll never know what you could lose until you've lost it, and then it may be too late ever to recover. Ceding control of the World Wide Web, which currently runs mostly on open standards which allows countless people to write software that works for it, to huge private companies brings with it the risk said companies could decide, jointly or severally, that they're no longer going to support features we take for granted. Such as being able to connect with almost any web site we want to. Or sending email, because they decide email's not worth supporting any more.

Not only that, but there's more money to be made by railroading you into using their proprietary apps to communicate over the internet. Who knows? Maybe the web as we know it could disappear into a GoogleNet and a FacebookNet, and heaven help you if Google or Facebook decides to cancel your account.


...snip...

We need to be careful about terminology, but I'd say the web "experience" we have today came from private companies popularising "connectability". Without the likes of AOL the "internet" would probably have remained something for the geeks. It took private commercial operators to bring the benefits of the internet to the mass market to such a point there was a critical mass of potential consumers and the web of today could come into being.
 
For everything. Chrome was once a great browser, but unless there's been an update that fixed it, Chrome was a bloated memory hungry leaky piece of ****.

I have literally never encountered a situation for which Edge wasn't perfectly functional.


For quite a while Edge did not work at all with Chromecast. Even after switching to the Chromium platform it remained hinky and difficult.

I understand the situation re: Chromecast is better now, but I haven't devoted any time to checking it out.

ETA: I should have mentioned that I use YouTube TV as a streaming provider, and have a Chromecast device on both of my TV sets. Simple connection with them is an important feature to me, and Chrome as a browser provides that.

Edge did not. Nor did Firefox, of which I had been a longtime user.

I have found a few methods to at least mitigate Chrome's memory hog tendencies. The rest I just deal with.
 
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[snip]

Second, as each generation of gateway device comes to me from my ISP, its functionality gets worse and worse. The latest device I got was so brain dead I had to put it into bridged mode and use a third-party device to regain functionality I lost when they stopped supporting the old device. (Indeed, the term "ISP" is now a misnomer: what they really want to do is simply be a WSP: "Web Service Portal," and deny me access to all the other services available on the internet. )

[snip]


Spectrum is my ISP. I do not use any of their hardware on my end of the coax. I have my own up to date cable modem and my own also up to date router wi. wifi. Both are fast and smooth.

The router is completely under my control and I choose which DNS servers I want it to use. If I want to use a VPN that's up to me as well.
 
As I said earlier, I have a lot of respect for you and your positions, so what you've written here is good cause for me to re-evaluate mine. It won't be a fun exercise, for it's possible I'm wrong and I'll have to admit it.

If you don't hear back from me on this for two or three days it's not because I've rejected your position; it's more likely because I'm trying to figure out where I should go on this. At this point even admitting you have valid points is challenging my worldview.

Or maybe I'll go all (insert name of well-known stubborn poster from the MS Estonia threads) on you and engage in a long drawn out squabble over an increasing number of finer and finer points.
I don't recommend you take technical advice from me. I'm a customer service wonk, not a techie. :D If you have reasons for taking the steps you take, I can't say you shouldn't. All I'm relating here is my own experience. I won't squabble with you on technical issues, but at the same time, technical issues aren't likely to affect my own behaviour. Ultimately, I'm lazy, and so is a lot of the rest of the world, and taking the steps you take seems to me like a lot of work for not much gain.
 

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