Waterboarding

[Ziggurat]

Probably because after listening to many troops who have returned from Iraq saying the same thing over and over, there seems to be a culture where this behavior is commonplace.

You mean people like Scott Beauchamp? Or maybe you mean Jessie Macbeth?

 

[The Fool]

so you are against ANY and ALL forms of physical, audio, video, and psychological pressure against a terror suspect?

how do you expect to get answers from a terrorist? threaten to call him bad names?

why should a "terror suspect" be a special case? I am against the use of torture in any situation......

I expect to get answers from criminals using acceptable police techniques.

but you prefer torture, thats your business.

 

[Thunder]

why should a "terror suspect" be a special case? I am against the use of torture in any situation......

I expect to get answers from criminals using acceptable police techniques.

but you prefer torture, thats your business.

if we had evidence that a nuclear bomb was gonna go off in 3 days, in some american city, and we had evidence that terror suspect A may have knowledge of the location of this bomb, i would have NO problem making the guy falsely believe he was drowning..to get that info.

clearly, you would gladly let this bomb go off, as it would usher in "martial law" and "fema camps" and your long awaited "revolution".

the needs of the many..outweigh..the needs of the few.

 

[David Wong]

if we had evidence that a nuclear bomb was gonna go off in 3 days, in some american city, and we had evidence that terror suspect A may have knowledge of the location of this bomb, i would have NO problem making the guy falsely believe he was drowning..to get that info.

clearly, you would gladly let this bomb go off, as it would usher in "martial law" and "fema camps" and your long awaited "revolution".

the needs of the many..outweigh..the needs of the few.

And I'm pretty certain that Barack Obama feels the same way. If he finds out that there may be a bomb about to go off in New York, and he finds himself in a Jack Bauer situation where we've got one of the members of the cell and the clock is ticking...

Yeah, I think Obama will have his ass waterboarded rather than go down in history as the president who allowed New York to be vaporized.

And I think history will applaud him for that.

Who here disagrees? What would you do in that kind of "ticking clock" scenario?

 

[Patriot4life]

For the "we" part to be true you'd have to show evidence that this was the result of orders from higher-ups. The fact that the military investigated, charged, and in many cases secured convictions for such actions argues against that.

Did the Japanese High Command ever reprimand anyone for abusing POWs?

In think with the release of the "SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE INQUIRY INTO THE TREATMENT OF DETAINEES IN U.S. CUSTODY " a few days ago, it is reasonably clear that the authorization to implement these types of interrogation measures came from the top down.

"The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of “a few bad apples” acting on their own. The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees. Those efforts damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority. This report is a product of the Committee’s inquiry into how those unfortunate results came about."

Was "slapping around" one of those methods? Naked pyramids? Sexual humiliation?

Following the Secretary’s December 2, 2002 authorization, senior staff at GTMO began drafting a Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) specifically for the use of SERE techniques in interrogations. The draft SOP itself stated that “The premise behind this is that the interrogation tactics used at U.S. military SERE schools are appropriate for use in real-world interrogations. These tactics and techniques are used at SERE school to ‘break’ SERE detainees. The same tactics and techniques can be used to break real detainees during interrogation.” The draft “GTMO SERE SOP” described how to slap, strip, and place detainees in stress positions. It also described other SERE techniques, such as “hooding,” “manhandling,” and “walling”

(emphasis mine)

The infamous Abu Ghraib pictures were unrelated to any interrogations. Those prisoners were just common criminals, not insurgents or terrorists. So why would you think their treatment has any relevance to discussions about interrogation techniques?

"In his report of his investigation into Abu Ghraib, Major General George Fay said that interrogation techniques developed for GTMO became “confused” and were implemented at Abu Ghraib. For example, Major General Fay said that removal of clothing, while not included in CJTF-7’s SOP, was “imported” to Abu Ghraib, could be “traced through Afghanistan and GTMO,” and contributed to an environment at Abu Ghraib that appeared “to condone depravity and degradation rather than humane treatment of detainees.” Major General Fay said that the policy approved by the Secretary of Defense on December 2, 2002 contributed to the use of aggressive interrogation techniques at Abu Ghraib in late 2003. "

All this and many more details are in the report it seems as many of you don't have enough information to make informed comments.

here is the report:

http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/supporting/2008/Detainees.121108.pdf

For those of you who condone the use of aggressive interrogation tactics, arguably torture you are at odds with what the report and a career intelligence officer conclude

"(U) The collection of timely and accurate intelligence is critical to the safety of U.S. personnel deployed abroad and to the security of the American people here at home. The methods by which we elicit intelligence information from detainees in our custody affect not only the reliability of that information, but our broader efforts to win hearts and minds and attract allies to our side.
(U) Al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists are taught to expect Americans to abuse them. They are recruited based on false propaganda that says the United States is out to destroy Islam. Treating detainees harshly only reinforces that distorted view, increases resistance to cooperation, and creates new enemies. In fact, the April 2006 National Intelligence Estimate “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States” cited “pervasive anti U.S. sentiment among most Muslims” as an underlying factor fueling the spread of the global jihadist movement. Former Navy General Counsel Alberto Mora testified to the Senate Armed Services Committee in June 2008 that “there are serving U.S. flag-rank officers who maintain that the first and second identifiable causes of U.S. combat deaths in Iraq – as judged by their effectiveness in recruiting insurgent fighters into combat – are, respectively the symbols of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.”

a pretty logical conclusion if you ask me.

"Lt. Gen. John Kimmons, a career intelligence officer and expert in interrogations... Conceding past “transgressions and mistakes,” Kimmons insisted: “No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that.
“Moreover, any piece of intelligence which is obtained under duress through the use of abusive techniques would be of questionable credibility. And additionally, it would do more harm than good when it inevitably became known that abusive practices were used. And we can’t go there.
“Some of our most significant successes on the battlefield have been — in fact, I would say all of them, almost categorically all of them have accrued from expert interrogators using mixtures of authorized, humane interrogation practices in clever ways that you would hope Americans would use them, to push the envelope within the bookends of the legal, moral, and ethical — now as further defined by this field manual. So we don’t need abusive practices in there. Nothing good will come from them.”

Here are a few more articles from a news outlet I frequent

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/121008b.html --Will Obama buy torture-lite

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/121208a.html --Torture Trail Seen Starting with Bush

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/121608a.html --Cheney Admits Detainee-Abuse Role

If you have time to read check out Robert Parry's series on Iran-Contra, or Robert Gates(Our current sec.of defense), lots of great info to broaden your current event and historical perspective.

 

[DC]

if we had evidence that a nuclear bomb was gonna go off in 3 days, in some american city, and we had evidence that terror suspect A may have knowledge of the location of this bomb, i would have NO problem making the guy falsely believe he was drowning..to get that info.

clearly, you would gladly let this bomb go off, as it would usher in "martial law" and "fema camps" and your long awaited "revolution".

the needs of the many..outweigh..the needs of the few.

And you think Waterboarding or other forms of torture will give you the answer you looking for? I doubt it.

 

[Ziggurat]

All this and many more details are in the report it seems as many of you don't have enough information to make informed comments.

I didn't say there were no issues regarding interrogation at Abu Ghraib. I said the infamous photos were not part of any interrogation. The victims in those photos were common criminals, never had any intelligence value, and were not interrogated. Nothing in your response actually challenges that.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

This entire thread has me at a loss. It would seem there are some people for whom torture is acceptable when the people being tortured possibly aren't beneficiaries of treaties against torture due to some technicality.

So torture isn't inherently wrong, it's just against some treaties? There are some of you who actually believe this?

 

[WildCat]

In think with the release of the "SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE INQUIRY INTO THE TREATMENT OF DETAINEES IN U.S. CUSTODY " a few days ago, it is reasonably clear that the authorization to implement these types of interrogation measures came from the top down.

Yeah, the report blames a directive issued to interrogators at Gitmo which was recinded 6 weeks later for abuse at Abu Ghraib which had nothing to do with interrogations and for which the US military prosecuted the perps. The mind boggles!

No, no political agenda in that report, no not at all!

 

[Upchurch]

if we had evidence that a nuclear bomb was gonna go off in 3 days, in some american city, and we had evidence that terror suspect A may have knowledge of the location of this bomb, i would have NO problem making the guy falsely believe he was drowning..to get that info.

clearly, you would gladly let this bomb go off, as it would usher in "martial law" and "fema camps" and your long awaited "revolution".

the needs of the many..outweigh..the needs of the few.

Why is it that the pro-torture people always pull out the "24" scenario as if dramatic music, cool action shots, and a convenient story line make an effective argument?

Read

 

[Patriot4life]

Yeah, the report blames a directive issued to interrogators at Gitmo which was recinded 6 weeks later for abuse at Abu Ghraib which had nothing to do with interrogations and for which the US military prosecuted the perps. The mind boggles!

No, no political agenda in that report, no not at all!

Did you read the report??

what exactly do you interperet the political agenda to be?

you do realize that:

The findings, which were released by Sens. Levin and John McCain of Arizona, this year’s Republican presidential nominee, drew no dissent from the 12 Republicans on the 25-member committee.

The 19-page report is the final installment in the Armed Services Committee’s 18-month investigation, which generated 38,000 pages of documents and relied upon the testimony of 70 people.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me it seems as though this was a fair inquiry into the U.S. treatment of detainees.

From what I have read

Ziggurat wrote:

So why would you think their treatment has any relevance to discussions about interrogation techniques?

I am sorry, I interpereted that last sentence to mean: that you think Abu Ghraib prison abuses and GTMO interrogation techniques were completely unrelated and had no common ground.

This conclusion should clear that up for ya'.

Conclusion 19: The abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply the result of a few soldiers acting on their own. Interrogation techniques such as stripping detainees of their clothes, placing them in stress positions, and using military working dogs to intimidate them appeared in Iraq only after they had been approved for use in Afghanistan and at GTMO. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld’s December 2, 2002 authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques and subsequent interrogation policies and plans approved by senior military and civilian officials conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees in U.S. military custody. What followed was an erosion in standards dictating that detainees be treated humanely.

Consider the case of Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, who was the first to investigate the Abu Ghraib prison abuse — the most glaring result of the President’s memo and Rumsfeld’s implementing instructions.

“Make sure this happens!” in Rumsfeld’s handwriting appeared on a memo over Rumsfeld’s signature that was prominently posted at Abu Ghraib

Unfortunately,the occurrence of Abu Ghraib prison abuses were inextricably linked to interrogation techniques employed by GTMO, which were inextricably linked to authorization from top U.S. officials.

One last qoute kind of sums up my understanding:

Indeed, Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who led an early investigation of abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, said “there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”

It would be supremely unfortunate to not prosecute the high level gov't officials for many reasons.

1. Further loss of rapport with practically every country in the world.
2. Increase in anti american sentiment and terrorism against the U.S. due to misunderstanding what humane Americans believe in.
3. Opens the gates for further abuses of power, this one we should of learned from history.

The birth of the Neocon powerhouse which has so deleteriously governed our country began with the criminal behaviour of Bush SR., Reagan, Gates, Casey, and others in the 1980's. Starting with the Republican countersuprise of 1980, where top level republican officials illegaly negotiated the further detainment of US hostages in Iran so as to quash the reelection of Carter. Further scandals such as: Iran Contra, and Iraq-gate occurred with no punitive charges, in short this just set the stage for the 2000 and 2004 debacles of administrations.

Basically if the establishment isn't punished the corruption and deceit will continue for as long as we allow it.

 

[WildCat]

Did you read the report??

what exactly do you interperet the political agenda to be?

I have a hard time seeing the connection between:

The document aims its harshest criticism at Rumsfeld's decision in December 2002 to authorize the use of aggressive interrogation techniques at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Although the order was rescinded six weeks later, the report describes it as "a direct cause for detainee abuse" at Guantanamo Bay, and concludes that it "influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques, including military working dogs, forced nudity and stress positions, in Afghanistan and Iraq."

So Rumsfeld authorizes interrogations at Gitmo, and rescinds them 6 weeks later. And this caused Graner & Co. to stack common criminals in naked pyramids and pose "thumbs up" next to them in Abu Ghraib?

you do realize that:



You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me it seems as though this was a fair inquiry into the U.S. treatment of detainees.

Yes I realize which way the political winds are blowing. Funny, when all this was going down and members of Congress were briefed on exactly what was happening no one objected then. What has changed other than the political climate?

 

[Vorticity]

Point of information:

Under what official authority does the VP have the power to authorize anything?

 

[Upchurch]

Point of information:

Under what official authority does the VP have the power to authorize anything?

The President's, should he allow the VP to act on his behalf.

 

[sleeplessdwarf]

Yes I realize which way the political winds are blowing. Funny, when all this was going down and members of Congress were briefed on exactly what was happening no one objected then. What has changed other than the political climate?

For me it has nothing to do with political winds. Cheney's video confession is what sparked my interest into whether they should now be tried for warcrimes.

 

[Cicero]

I expect to get answers from criminals using acceptable police techniques.

You mean like beating suspects with the Manhattan Yellow Pages, 24 hour non stop interrogation, complete isolation, and using the threat of capital punishment?

 

[COLONEL]

It's not a war crime because the U.S. is not technically at war with anyone. Thanks to the War Powers Act I doubt the U.S. will ever have another declared war.

How true , Thats how the Vietnamise were able to beat and torture us . If you mentioned the Geneeva convention they would laugh and say war has not been declared you not entiled .Our military men were tortuered in Iraq too compared to what they have done to us I see no problem with
water bording . Our POW's are treated alot better then they treat us .

 

[WildCat]

Yesterday I posted a story about the systemic and ongoing abuse of children in the Cook County Juvenile Detention facility and not a single person commented on it.

Waterboard KSM for 30 seconds and the entire world gets in a tizzy... go figure.

 

[Upchurch]

Yesterday I posted a story about the systemic and ongoing abuse of children in the Cook County Juvenile Detention facility and not a single person commented on it.

Waterboard KSM for 30 seconds and the entire world gets in a tizzy... go figure.

I posted a thread two days ago on how a bi-partisan report found top Bush administration officials responsible for detainee abuse, putting the lie to the "just a few bad apples" excuse, and only three people responded. Go figure.

 

[lomiller]

Asano's victims were actual POWs, for which the rules of treatment are far more favorable than unlawful combatants

“Unlawful enemy combatants” is a term that has no legal meaning. It’s something bush pulled out of his ass to attempt to justify actions that violated every international standard of prisoner treatment. You are either a POW or you fall under civil authority. There is no third option, and you certainly can’t create your own third option for “POW’s whom we don’t have to adhere to international law.”