Waterboarding Rocks!

[Cicero]

No-one, I think, has argued that waterboarding is "light-years more egregious" than what you have described.

No?

Better check with ANTpogo

 

[A'isha]

Because varwoche leaped before he looked?

Oooh, so close, and yet so tragically far.

No, it's because I already pointed out to you that MacArthur releasing prisoners early without commuting or overturning their sentences does absolutely zip to the fact that these men were convicted of torture that explicitly and specifically included the exact same waterboarding technique used by the CIA at Guantanamo and were sentenced to serve anywhere from 5 to 25 years of hard labor by an American-led war crimes tribunal.

And yet here you are, trotting that same cut-and-pasted comment out yet again, as if it means something.

 

[A'isha]

No?

Better check with ANTpogo

Here, let me quote my post directly above this one, to keep you from suffering under the drudgework of having to put words in my mouth:

You really, truly, honestly don't see the difference between torturing prisoners held in a secure location a hemisphere away from the war zone as a matter of official government policy, and soldiers on an active battlefield committing acts explicitly against stated government policy that they could be (and sometimes were) prosecuted for by that government?

 

[Cicero]

Ah, well, obviously that makes a huge difference.

Well, since Raychill Maddow erroneously claimed Japanese convicted of "waterboarding" at the Tokyo Trials were hanged, I guess I should be sanguine that at least varwoche got the sentence correct if not the time served.

 

[Dr Adequate]

No?

No.

Better check with ANTpogo

I read his posts: I advise you to do the same.

 

[A'isha]

Well, since Raychill Maddow erroneously claimed Japanese convicted of "waterboarding" at the Tokyo Trials were hanged, I guess I should be sanguine that at least varwoche got the sentence correct if not the time served.

Seriously, did this thread just jump back in time?

Cicero, we covered why it doesn't matter what Maddow said way back on, like, page SEVEN.

 

[Cicero]

Oooh, so close, and yet so tragically far.

No, it's because I already pointed out to you that MacArthur releasing prisoners early without commuting or overturning their sentences does absolutely zip to the fact that these men were convicted of torture that explicitly and specifically included the exact same waterboarding technique used by the CIA at Guantanamo and were sentenced to serve anywhere from 5 to 25 years of hard labor by an American-led war crimes tribunal.

And yet here you are, trotting that same cut-and-pasted comment out yet again, as if it means something.

Cut & Paste argument? These are facts. Manson and three of his followers were sentenced to death. The change of the death penalty in California after their incarceration allowed them to be eligible for parole. Tex Watson was then able to marry and have three children while behind bars. Does this change his original conviction? No, but it sure does diminish the severity of his original punishment and, by so doing, the brutality of his actions.

 

[Cicero]

Seriously, did this thread just jump back in time?

Cicero, we covered why it doesn't matter what Maddow said way back on, like, page SEVEN.

Apparently it does matter since her erroneous information is taken as fact by people who post the same idiocy on the internet.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Cut & Paste argument? These are facts. Manson and three of his followers were sentenced to death. The change of the death penalty in California after their incarceration allowed them to be eligible for parole. Tex Watson was then able to marry and have three children while behind bars. Does this change his original conviction? No, but it sure does diminish the severity of his original punishment and, by so doing, the brutality of his actions.

It "diminishes the brutality of his actions"?

Did some of his victims come back to life or something?

 

[A'isha]

Cut & Paste argument? These are facts. Manson and three of his followers were sentenced to death. The change of the death penalty in California after their incarceration allowed them to be eligible for parole. Tex Watson was then able to marry and have three children while behind bars. Does this change his original conviction? No, but it sure does diminish the severity of his original punishment and, by so doing, the brutality of his actions.

Why, because YOU say so?

And if I say in an argument that the US government shouldn't murder people in Satanic rituals by pointing out that Charles Manson was sentenced to death for the same thing, do you really think saying "Hey, they later changed the death penalty so he's only spending life in prison now" is some kind of mitigation or justification for the original murders?

 

[Cicero]

It "diminishes the brutality of his actions"?

Did some of his victims come back to life or something?

Noooo. But he was allowed to have a life while his victims lives were cut short.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Apparently it does matter since her erroneous information is taken as fact by people who post the same idiocy on the internet.

You mean, someone on the internet is wrong about something?

Well, that's shocking, but why don't you confine yourself to debating the people actually posting on this thread?

 

[A'isha]

Apparently it does matter since her erroneous information is taken as fact by people who post the same idiocy on the internet.

Really? Who did that at this point in this particular thread, which made you want to "correct the record" by posting about Maddow's erroneous claim?

It can't have been varwoche, since you yourself admitted that varwoche didn't make Maddow's mistake.

So who was it, Cicero?

 

[Cicero]

Why, because YOU say so?

And if I say in an argument that the US government shouldn't murder people in Satanic rituals by pointing out that Charles Manson was sentenced to death for the same thing, do you really think saying "Hey, they later changed the death penalty so he's only spending life in prison now" is some kind of mitigation or justification for the original murders?

So now you are incredulous that MacArthur reduced these sentences by one-third in 1950. Are you that desperate?

 

[Upchurch]

Since Cicero has forgotten what point he was arguing, here are some highlights from earlier in the thread:

BAC, read about integrity.

Least it be missed by those who sorely need to read it:

The torture proponents on this board should be ashamed of themselves. These guys faced down the freakin' Nazis during a much more difficult war than we are currently in and they never...

Well, in their own words:

Feel free to crawl back under the nearest rock.

I'm sure Howard Zinn, a WWII veteran, also objects to waterboarding the three detainees. Is that supposed to be the definitive answer that ends the discussion? There were 16 million Americans in uniform during WWII. How many do you think have a difference of opinion with Zinn, Henry Kolm, Peter Weiss, Arno Mayer, George Frenke, etc?

Paul Tibbets was excoriated by some vets after the war for dropping the A-Bomb on Hiroshima. He may have been nonplussed about their opinions, but he always maintained he didn't lose sleep over his actions.

But Kolm's chess playing with Hess must have done something to the man. In 1940, he flew a Bf-110 to Scotland for a meeting with the Duke of Hamilton.

You misunderstand the importance of what these men were saying.

These veterans had the same job to do during a worse period of our history. They are speaking not of preference, but out of experience. Their opinion does out weight those vets who were not interrogators because they are speaking with authority on the subject. And they say that torture is not only not necessary, but not as effective and degrading to the honor of the US.

They did what you and BAC seem to think is impossible: both saving lives and upholding the moral high ground at the same time.

A hundred of you two aren't worth one of them.

Members of the OSS are also veterans of WWII, and they used the waterboarding technique on Wehrmacht and Schutzstaffeln personnel captured during the war.

Of course the OSS wasn't in the cozy surroundings of Fort Hunt Virginia when they questioned their captives. They were in Sicily/Italy/France when they needed to get information in a hurry. Do their actions invalidate your notion that the U.S. held the moral high ground in WWII?

You didn't read the article, did you? These men were interrogators during one of the most difficult times in our country's history since the Civil War, including our current situation. They interrogated Nazis and had the integrity to not stoop to their level or that of the Japanese.



I'm embarrassed for the both of you.


eta: The truly ironic thing here is that it is the conservatives (nut jobs, I'll grant you, but still conservatives) who are actively trying to change what it means to be an American rather than preserving it.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Noooo. But he was allowed to have a life while his victims lives were cut short.

So ... how did it make his actions less brutal?

And how does this justify waterboarding?

 

[A'isha]

So now you are incredulous that MacArthur reduced these sentences by one-third in 1950.

No, I'm incredulous that you think MacArthur's early release of these convicted prisoners somehow means that waterboarding isn't all that bad, isn't a war crime, and/or should be used by the CIA today. Especially since MacArthur's actions didn't change their conviction status, and so they remained convicted torturers.

Just like Charles Manson is still a convicted murderer.

Are you that desperate?

Not desperate enough to think that the early release of a prisoner justifies the crime said prisoner committed so that the government which tried, convicted, and imprisoned said prisoner can now make the performance of that crime official government policy.

Because that's such a patently moronic argument that only the truly desperate would even think that trying to make it is somehow even remotely a good idea.

 

[varwoche]

Actually, he didn't serve 15 years.

"On March 7, 1950, MacArthur issued a directive that reduced the sentences by one-third for good behavior and authorized the parole of those who had received life sentences after fifteen years."

"By the end of 1958, all Japanese war criminals, including A-, B- and C-class were released from prison and politically rehabilitated."

Thanks for the correction. (with the caveat that I've no idea who you're quoting, and that's a bit of a problem especially given your track record)

 

[Upchurch]

Thanks for the correction. (with the caveat that I've no idea who you're quoting, and that's a bit of a problem especially given your track record)

Google and ye shall find ...wikipedia

 

[leftysergeant]

We know that G.I's shot enemy POW's. We also know that the OSS, their operatives, and independent Guerilla forces did not always operate by the Geneva Convention.

We know that, in a fit of rage, they gunned down a pack of murderers who fell into their hands under conditions under which they knew that they were not shooting actual soldiers. What has this to do with torturing someone you THINK might have intel that would be of use?

Waffen SS were not really soldiers, especially those at the death camps.

If nothing else, the incident proves that a soldier has no use for, nor does he regard as a human being, the kind of dirtbags who torture people.