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Waterboarding Rocks!

Upchurch said:
As I said earlier, there was prisoner abuse but it was neither systemic nor policy. Do you have evidence that it was?

We're still waiting on Cicero's evidence concerning his claims about the OSS. What do you have?
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I didn't think there was anyone this naive alive.
 
Upchurch said:
In case you missed it, Mr. Miller here is equally as naive ...with sources:


What have you got to back your claim?
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I didn't realize we only fought in Europe. Your source seems to forget entirely about the South Pacific . Oh well. I guess half a loaf is better than none.
 
Praktik said:
Seems pretty morally consistent to me. How is this "moral equivalence"?
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If you don't know, I really can't help you at this point.

Praktik said:
Please explain and understand that this is not frivolous
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Yes it is ... either that or my trying to explain this after so much has already been posted would be too frustrating. Like beating one's head against a brick wall.

Praktik said:
I'm not cut out to be a torturer.
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And apparently you also aren't cut out to be a hero and save a hundred thousand lives.

Praktik said:
and not discussing other consequences of a torture policy, such as the treatment of my own soldiers when they fall under the control of the enemy I'm fighting with torture
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We already know what happens when our soldiers fall under the control of the folks were are fighting. GRUESOME TORTURE, BEHEADING AND DISMEMBERMENT. Haven't you heard? And that treatment has NOTHING to do with our treatment of their *soldiers*. I'm surprised I have to even explain this to you.

Praktik said:
People bring up these concerns and you brush them aside as prevarications.
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When have I done that? Now you are just making things up.

Praktik said:
EDIT: To me, the idea of being opposed to torture in principle (and even beyond the empirical evidence that it is ineffective at achieving stated aims and the other problems I've listed above) is the very definition of "moral clarity". To me, BAC's the one muddying the previously clear waters of morality...
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Such is the insanity of the left. Twisting and contorting all logic and fact in order to justify seeing the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people as no worse than inflicting some temporary pain and discomfort on one decidedly evil person. :rolleyes:
 
The Painter said:
I didn't realize we only fought in Europe. Your source seems to forget entirely about the South Pacific . Oh well. I guess half a loaf is better than none.
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Okay, what evidence do you have that we tortured Japanese POWs in WWII as a matter of policy? (Or Italian POWs, for completeness)

eta: for the record, I'm not arguing that disparate incidents of POW abuse never happened. There were far too many people involved across the world. I'm saying that the US did not do it as a matter of policy as they are doing now.



I can't help notice that every time I ask for evidence on this sub-topic, all I get is repetition of the claim. This is still a skepticism board, right?
 
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joobz said:
So do you advocate taking all of the Rich's Money away and giving it to the poor? I mean, with his multi multi billions of dollars, just think of all the people we'd save from starvation.
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You're too easy ignore joobz. By the way, you going to answer my question? :D
 
Praktik said:
Originally Posted by joobz
So do you advocate taking all of the Rich's Money away and giving it to the poor? I mean, with his multi multi billions of dollars, just think of all the people we'd save from starvation.

Now THAT's moral clarity AND consistency... what say you BAC? After all its, the number of lives we can save that count isn't it?
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What makes you think we can give money stolen from others to people and stop starvation? Do you know how many trillions have been thrown at the War On Poverty in the US so far? TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS. Yet there are just as many poor people today as there were back in the 60s. Do you know how many tens of billions have been thrown at the war on hunger around the world? And yet that hasn't even dented the number of starving people. When are you leftists going to understand that you don't solve poverty or hunger by making us all poor? That you won't solve it by instituting socialist or communist policies?

Now do you want get back to the topic of things we actually could prevent ... like a terrorist attack that would kill a hundred thousand people or more? Or should we just conclude you lack moral clarity and end this debate? :D
 
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Upchurch said:
Okay, what evidence do you have that we tortured Japanese POWs in WWII as a matter of policy? (Or Italian POWs, for completeness)
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FWIW, Wikipedia fails to mention US torture in either theater.

But, I'm sure Cicero or The Painter have some source they can point to. Surely they weren't just assuming that Americans never had integrity?
 
BeAChooser said:
What makes you think we can give money stolen from others to people and stop starvation? Do you know how many trillions have been thrown at the War On Poverty in the US so far? TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS.
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A little clarification then. Assume we can pull infinite amounts of money from the rich without depleting their bank accounts. Would you do it then?
 
BeAChooser said:
What makes you think we can give money stolen from others to people and stop starvation? Do you know how many trillions have been thrown at the War On Poverty in the US so far? TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS. Yet there are just as many poor people today as there were back in the 60s.
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You remember how your own figures proved you wrong?

Now, back to you being wrong about torture.
 
The Painter said:
No you moron this is justification
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Let me get this straight. You claim KSM's torture prevented the Library Tower attack. I demonstrate the sheer stupidity of this claim, backed up by links and evidence. Your response is to refute none of that, call me a moron and post a picture of 911.

Hang on, let me check.....nope, this is not the Stormfront fora - it's still JREF. I coulda sworn....
 
BAC, how would you integrate this into your scenario?

The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."
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Note that's not some nutbar on the fringe left; that is the US Military. Not just the military, but the unit charged with having expertise on torture. Makes your demand for a black-and-white answer to your fantasyland scenario kinda silly.

ETA: And, BTW, coming back to the real world, note the date of the document: July, 2002. That's roughly nine months before KSM was captured.
 
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tsig said:
What does it profit a man if he gain the whole world yet lose his soul?
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We can exchange platitudes all day if you like. And be no closer to truth and moral clarity than when we begin. :rolleyes:

By the way, if you are going to quote the Bible at me, let's see what the Bible has to say about torture and inflicting pain (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/torture.html):

"Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying." Proverbs 19:18 . In other words, beat them while there is still time to make a change and don't stop just because they cry. Sounds like God might approve of waterboarding one evil person while there is still time to save 100,000 innocent people.

And note that the Bible says David was "a man after God's own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22) and "did what was right in the sight of the Lord ... save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite" (1 Kings 15:5). But David tortured the inhabitants of several cities, so torture (at least in some circumstances) must be okay with God. Right? And what sort of torture did David employ? Pretty harsh stuff ... much harder than waterboarding. "And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. (2 Samuel 12:31). "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. (1 Chronicles 20:3).


And that source cites other examples from the Bible that support my views. So really ... what was your point other than to confirm my impression of you?
 
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leftysergeant said:
Do you know what Einstein said about people who do the same thing over and over and expect a different result?
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But I'm not doing the same thing over and over with the same people, lefty. Please pay attention rather than listening to the voices in your head. :D
 
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