Waterboarding Rocks!

[BeAChooser]

We seem to be in agreement that the effectiveness of non-traditional methods needs to be proven before we attempt to use them.

My mistake. I misread what you wrote. I would agree that some non-traditional methods do need to be proven. But waterboarding isn't one of them. It is a proven technique. And think I can turn your statement around and say that the effectiveness of traditional methods in situations where time is of the essence needs to be proven before we rely on them when thousands of peoples lives are at risk. That was my point. Which so far you are simply ignoring.

And at present there is no more evidence for the effectiveness of torture in obtaining the location of ticking time bombs than there is for the effectiveness of map-dowsers or psychic detectives in locating these things.

This is simply a lie. There is evidence, even if you don't like it. Even if you don't trust it. If you want to call the CIA agents (that the reputable sources I linked quoted) liars, then do so. Don't mince words. The only way we will know for sure is to have the secret documents on the KSM and other al-Qaeda interrogations released. Are you for or against that? And if it turns out that they agent were not lying, will you join me in asking Obama to reconsider the use of waterboarding in urgent, important situations? Hmmmmmm?

It's possible that the interrogation experts who dismiss torture as ineffective are wrong; similarly, it's possible that skeptics who dismiss psychic detectives as ineffective are wrong.

This is just a dishonest debating technique. Trying to link something that you know most people will accept as nonsense to what you are trying to argue against. This is the same technique that liberal news organizations (like ABC) tried to use to discredit the Ron Brown allegations (when they linked them to ufos).

If your claim that torture is an effective method for obtaining useful information is true, then the evidence should bear this out. Please lay your evidence out clearly, so that we can examine and evaluate it.

I've made no claim that torture is an effective method. I have argued that waterboarding may be effective. Whether waterboarding is really torture ... or what most people actually think of when you (deliberately) use the loaded word "torture" ... is another matter. In any case, one way to find out whether waterboarding is effective is for Obama to release the documents describing the interrogations of the various al-Qaeda who were waterboarded and any information that shows whether their "admissions" were true, and whether that intelligence did saved lives or not. The ball is in Obama's court, and if he chooses not to resolve this issue, then one might wonder why. Is he playing political games with our national security ... or not?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Funny how Hitchens has fallen out of favor with libs since his support of the Iraq War. Is he redeeming himself in the eyes of libs by stating he believes waterboarding is torture after his first hand experience? But at least he is now considered a "patriot" for having been waterboarded.

I find it interesting that you think I ever viewed Hitchens with disfavor... nice way to avoid the issue. Keep piling up those straw men, Cicero.

After several root canals, I came to the conclusion that this was torture. Any chance I might see my dentists tried in Den Haag?

Any chance that you'll volunteer to be waterboarded, like Hitchens did? C'mon, if it isn't that bad, then certainly you - Mr. Bad Ass Root Canal - can handle it better than he did. After all, as BAC keeps harping, it's just nothing more than a little "temporary discomfort".

"Real Americans" my achin' ass

 

[MattusMaximus]

So MM, since you've decided to enter the fray, let's see if you'll answer my question.

How about you answer my question first? You know, since I've been asking it of you for many pages now.

 

[MattusMaximus]

But we do and always have and always will, whether legally or not. What made you think otherwise?

Yeah, the "we've always done it" argument makes torture okay. Not only that, but it also makes it effective!

 

[Drysdale]

Maybe this has been asked but I did'nt see it if so.

This question is for those that are so opposed to the waterboarding and techniques that were used in this instance.

What specifically is acceptable to interrogate the suspects?

 

[BeAChooser]

In that hypothetical, in which we have such a short time left in which to elicit information that you rule out the use of conventional interrogations methods, you have arbitrarily selected torture as the hail-mary method to use in obtaining the location of a ticking-time-bomb before it goes off.

And I'm telling you it isn't an arbitrary decision. It's a decision of last resort. Because you haven't proven than any of the conventional methods will elicit information in a couple hours. But we do have indications that some methods that you call torture, like waterboarding, can elicit cooperation. Furthermore, there are reports that in those situations the subjects had resisted conventional methods for weeks and even months. Yet they broke in minutes and started talking when waterboarded.

But the use of a psychic detective is another alternative which, if successful, could elicit the information in the specified time period. So, for that matter, is map-dowsing.

Again, you resort to a dishonest debating tactic. It is dishonest to put psychic detectives and map dowsing on the same level as waterboarding in terms of credibility. If that's what you are going to do, then this debate is over. I will simply ignore most of your ravings just as I ignore most of lefty's.

Unless you can provide a good reason for accepting the claim that torture is effective in locating hidden time-bombs while rejecting the claim that psychic detection is effective in locating hidden time-bombs, then your choice of torture is indeed arbitrary.

I have given my reasons, but you choose to ignore them. I admit that you and your side hold all the cards. Whether the information gets released to resolve this question once and for all, depends entirely on Obama's administration at this point. If they don't release the reports detailing all the interrogations of the al-Qaeda in question, and their relative effectiveness, then I can only believe it's because those reports would show that Obama and his minions are wrong about this issue on which they have staked so much political capital. I can see no reason why Obama would not release the reports, if they show the CIA agents and Bush administration officials were lying. If they show that applying waterboarding doesn't work. Because if it doesn't work, what's the point in keeping the reports and data secret?

Those conventional methods elicited the information which foiled the LA library tower plot.

But they had months to apply them. That isn't the scenario that concerns me. As I have stated from the beginning.

Quote:
... torture is still the best and perhaps only effective approach in such circumstances.

Interesting claim. I await your presentation of the evidence to support it.

That's up to Obama. He can prove the CIA agents I cited wrong or he can let their statements stand. And you certainly haven't provide any reports in this thread that indicate conventional techniques have a good track record in breaking subjects in a matter of hours ... or even a few days. Especially hard cases like top al-Qaeda operatives.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Maybe this has been asked but I did'nt see it if so.

This question is for those that are so opposed to the waterboarding and techniques that were used in this instance.

What specifically is acceptable to interrogate the suspects?

Ask John McCain.

 

[Drysdale]

Ask John McCain.

No,I'm asking the people on this board that are so adamant against it.

 

[BeAChooser]

You are in a round room looking for a corner. If what you are saying is true the the Obama administration has allowed CIA interrogators go free despite the fact that the memos laid out the parameters for the interrogations that clearly state that the water board CANNOT be used for more than 5 days, that the sessions are limited to 2 hours per 24 hour period and that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES can the subject be exposed to water more than 12 minutes over 24 hours. You tell me, which do you want to believe, that Obama is aiding and abetting the crimes of CIA operatives that went beyond their legal restrictions or that POSSIBLY that the footnote is being misinterpreted. For me I would love for Obama to be hoisted on his on petard and be impeached for covering up for the CIA interrogators.

I agree. Obama and his minions have backed themselves into a corner. Obama needs to release the documents so we the American public can decide whether the CIA operatives and some Bush administration officials lied to us or whether Obama's minions have mischaracterized the use and effectiveness of waterboarding. The ball is in Obama's camp.

If waterboarding is as ineffective as NL claims, then there is no reason not to declassify the interrogations and show the American public the truth about the CIA and Bush Administration. Then we can all agree that Bush lied and the CIA can't be trusted.

But if Obama doesn't release the information, we can only assume it's because it casts HIS administration, HIS minions and HIS chosen policy in a bad light.

So which is it to be? Transparency (as promised) ... or more of the same ol' same ol' dishonesty that we've seen past decades from democrats?

 

[BeAChooser]

BAC, what do you think about Republican John McCain, who has openly opposed waterboarding as torture?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/washington/13cnd-cong.html?hp

Senate Passes Interrogation Ban

February 13, 2008

WASHINGTON — The Senate voted 51 to 45 on Wednesday afternoon to ban waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods used by the Central Intelligence Agency against high-level terrorism suspects.

... snip ...

Mr. McCain voted “no” on Wednesday afternoon.

 

[BeAChooser]

What good are your morals if they don't apply in just such a situation?

What are saying? That you wouldn't apply non-lethal pain to a prisoner even if you believed it could save a hundred thousand lives or perhaps even a few billion lives? If so, I not sure you should be lecturing me on morals.

 

[MattusMaximus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/washington/13cnd-cong.html?hp

Yes, and I see that you conveniently left out this line from the article...

... Mr. McCain, a former prisoner of war, has consistently voiced opposition to waterboarding and other methods that critics say is a form torture.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I agree. Obama and his minions have backed themselves into a corner. Obama needs to release the documents so we the American public can decide whether the CIA operatives and some Bush administration officials lied to us or whether Obama's minions have mischaracterized the use and effectiveness of waterboarding. The ball is in Obama's camp.

If waterboarding is as ineffective as NL claims, then there is no reason not to declassify the interrogations and show the American public the truth about the CIA and Bush Administration. Then we can all agree that Bush lied and the CIA can't be trusted.

But if Obama doesn't release the information, we can only assume it's because it casts HIS administration, HIS minions and HIS chosen policy in a bad light.

Why should we assume the Bush and his, ah, "minions" didn't do so? Didn't they want to prove to the world how right they were?

 

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo
Do you really think that BAC, having already declared he'd gladly torture someone to prevent the deaths of untold billions

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
And you wouldn't? Well I guess that makes you morally superior.

Yes it does.

Here you go folks. Yet another (likely liberal) member of JREF who would let the human race be murdered by the billions rather than apply non-lethal, temporary pain and discomfort to one individual even if he suspected that person had information that could prevent that global murder. Such is the insanity of the left and Obama's followers.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Here you go folks. Yet another (likely liberal) member of JREF who would let the human race be murdered by the billions rather than apply non-lethal, temporary pain and discomfort to one individual even if he suspected that person had information that could prevent that global murder. Such is the insanity of the left and Obama's followers.

Still lying, eh?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Ahem, BAC... care to comment on the very NYTimes article which you cited as John McCain supporting torture?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/washington/13cnd-cong.html?hp

Yes, and I see that you conveniently left out this line from the article...

... Mr. McCain, a former prisoner of war, has consistently voiced opposition to waterboarding and other methods that critics say is a form torture.

Oh, and while you're at it, I'm still waiting for your response as to whether or not you'll volunteer to be waterboarded. After all, it's only a "temporary discomfort", isn't it?

 

[boloboffin]

Oh, is BAC making a list? I'd like to get on that one, please, BAC. My full name is Joseph Wade Nobles, Jr.

 

[A'isha]

Maybe this has been asked but I did'nt see it if so.

This question is for those that are so opposed to the waterboarding and techniques that were used in this instance.

What specifically is acceptable to interrogate the suspects?

The techniques outlined in the Army Interrogation Manual prior to Bush taking office would be a good place to start.

Those techniques were considered good enough to protect us during a shooting conflict (and potential nuclear war) with the "Evil Empire" itself, after all. You know, things the government thought would protect us during a situation where the Commie tanks could overrun Europe and Russkie guided-missile subs could be in New York Harbor and Soviet bombers could fly right over Sarah Palin's house.

Somehow, I think that as dangerous as al-Qaeda might be now, their threat kind of pales in comparison to that.

 

[MattusMaximus]

No,I'm asking the people on this board that are so adamant against it.

What ANTPogo said.

 

[Dr Adequate]

What ANTPogo said.

But that only kept us safe from real things. Nothing will keep us safe from the imaginary things inside BeAChooser's head, except agreeing with him about whatever his point is.