Water 4 Gas

[David Rodale]

Nope.




http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm


Now keep in mind there's a reason for this confusion; the people selling the devices all have different explanations for how it's supposed to work. Some compare them to add-ons that make the existing fuel combust more efficiently, some compare them to Hydrogen cars like the Honda Clarity, some (as above) claim to burn Hydrogen as a fuel.

That's part of the deal, they know that people have heard the word "Hydrogen" tossed around in talking about future cars so they just seize on that with their silly mason jar device. They write up a few paragraphs that make sense to someone without an education on the subject and there you go.

all have different explanations ??

Is there a correct explanation?

GreyICE gets it close and you guys throw water on him.

 

[GreyICE]

Nope.




http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm


Now keep in mind there's a reason for this confusion; the people selling the devices all have different explanations for how it's supposed to work. Some compare them to add-ons that make the existing fuel combust more efficiently, some compare them to Hydrogen cars like the Honda Clarity, some (as above) claim to burn Hydrogen as a fuel.

That's part of the deal, they know that people have heard the word "Hydrogen" tossed around in talking about future cars so they just seize on that with their silly mason jar device. They write up a few paragraphs that make sense to someone without an education on the subject and there you go.

Right from the main site they have:

# The Water4Gas technology is simple, yet very effective: water is split into a SMALL amount hydrogen and oxygen ("HHO" or "Brown's Gas") and these gases are used to BOOST engine efficiency, thus saving fuel, cooling down the engine, while drastically reducing emissions.

And every time you hit them with basic thermodynamics they run right back to that one. So its a gigantic waste of time and they'll always latch onto that as the one they're going for when promoting their woo (see rodale above).

 

[David Rodale]

Right from the main site they have:



And every time you hit them with basic thermodynamics they run right back to that one. So its a gigantic waste of time and they'll always latch onto that as the one they're going for when promoting their woo (see rodale above).

To clarify, I've never read 'water4gas' and frankly don't care. There are many nutty claims out there. What you folks do is pick the least common denominator and lump them in with the legitimate ones.

Are you prepared to say it is impossible to increase fuel efficiency via injection of H2 or "HHO" generated onboard a vehicle using said vehicles electrical system, both in theory and in the real world?


Yes or no? Very simple.

 

[GreyICE]

To clarify, I've never read 'water4gas' and frankly don't care. There are many nutty claims out there. What you folks do is pick the least common denominator and lump them in with the legitimate ones.

Are you prepared to say it is impossible to increase fuel efficiency via injection of H2 or "HHO" generated onboard a vehicle using said vehicles electrical system, both in theory and in the real world?


Yes or no? Very simple.

Based on our current scientific understanding, it is impossible to increase the combustion efficiency of a standard automobile simply by attaching a device that creates a small amount of hydrogen. Any such scientific exploration of those routes has involved radically redesigning the engine sizing, design, and other important aspects of the vehicle.

If people wish to discuss a new and different engine design (for instance a lean-burn setup) they need to discuss the total redesign invovled, not pretend that you can get there with a water4woo device. If you wish to discuss our scientific understanding being a giant front to push agendas, I suggest the CT forum.

 

[TMiguel]

To clarify, I've never read 'water4gas' and frankly don't care. There are many nutty claims out there. What you folks do is pick the least common denominator and lump them in with the legitimate ones.

Are you prepared to say it is impossible to increase fuel efficiency via injection of H2 or "HHO" generated onboard a vehicle using said vehicles electrical system, both in theory and in the real world?


Yes or no? Very simple.

YES! (on common cars)

 

[David Rodale]

Based on our current scientific understanding, it is impossible to increase the combustion efficiency of a standard automobile simply by attaching a device that creates a small amount of hydrogen. Any such scientific exploration of those routes has involved radically redesigning the engine sizing, design, and other important aspects of the vehicle.

If people wish to discuss a new and different engine design (for instance a lean-burn setup) they need to discuss the total redesign invovled, not pretend that you can get there with a water4woo device. If you wish to discuss our scientific understanding being a giant front to push agendas, I suggest the CT forum.

First, ArvinMeritor in cooperation with MIT was developing a plasma reformer for use in ICE. They sold the technology to EMCON for ~$300 million however no word as of late what they are doing with it.

As stated previously, an electrolyzer "HHO" generator on an OEM production vehicle is neither practical or even safe as the average Joe/Jane Idiot would likely ruin it or turn it into a disaster waiting to happen. Trucking firms and backyard mechanics are more suited for this. A gasoline reformer would be much better.

I've been doing this for over 10 years on 3 different vehicles. I raced cars for 25 years and worked in the automotive engineering business the last 15, 10 in Aerospace previous. It is not difficult to gain 20% using this mundane technology. My 2003 Durango 4.7L now has well over 60,000 miles logged with a 6 cell plate type electrolyzer with ~75% efficiency putting out 2.5-3.0 LPM. A new unit is in the works using this new technology. I really don't care about nabobs who don't have the ability or desire to experiment; leave that to those of us who do.

We can discuss the finer points and technical aspects of how it works, but that is available from various sources so there's no reason to impress with BS. The idea that an engine must be completely redesigned to run at leaner conditions comes from ignorance and is your way of attempting to make it appear you know the first thing about combustion processes and engine design.

Also, your example of increasing efficiency by eliminating the fuel pump is quite hilarious and would be undetectable. In fact, you couldn't measure the difference in efficiency by turning off the entire electrical system.

Having never purchased 'water4gas' or any other device I cannot comment on them, however have had correspondence with Fran Giroux who has much experience with "HHO", I have confidence in him.

The following focuses on commericial vehicles using diesel fuel. The government is now beginning to acknowledge "HHO" injection as a viable technology.
GUIDELINES FOR USE OF HYDROGEN FUEL IN COMMERCIAL VEHICLES Final Report

Today, virtually all commercial trucks are powered by diesel fuel, while private cars are fueled by gasoline. Supported by our National Energy Policy, a new generation of technologies is currently being developed that allow the use of hydrogen as a fuel to power cars and trucks. In the future, hydrogen may be used in one of three ways to power vehicles:
• To produce electricity in a fuel cell,
• As a replacement for gasoline or diesel fuel in an internal combustion engine, or
• As a supplement to gasoline or diesel fuel used in an internal combustion engine.

Several fuel cell buses have been demonstrated that “reform,” or extract hydrogen from, liquid methanol onboard (Georgetown University, 2003), and there are fuel cell APU systems under development that will derive their hydrogen from onboard reforming of diesel fuel or gasoline (Delphi, 2005). In addition, there are several commercial ‘hydrogen injection’ systems available for retrofit on diesel engines (CHEC, n.d.). These systems produce small amounts of hydrogen by electrolysis of water carried on the vehicle, which is injected into the diesel engine along with the diesel fuel.

A hydrogen injection system for a diesel engine produces small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen on demand by electrolyzing water carried onboard the vehicle. The electricity required is supplied by the engine’s alternator or 12/24-volt electrical system (see Section 1.5 for a description of electrolysis). The hydrogen and oxygen are injected into the engine’s air intake manifold, where they mix with the intake air. In theory, the combustion properties of the hydrogen result in more complete combustion of diesel fuel in the engine, reducing tailpipe emissions and improving fuel economy (CHEC, n.d.)

CHEC guarntees 10% minimum fuel mileage increase with reported actual real world results much higher. That their system is installed on several thousand vehicles pretty much makes you the fool, unless of course you think trucking fleets are in the habit of flushing money down the toilet.

Performance and Fuel Consumption Estimation of a Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline Engine At Part-Load Operation

Abstract:
Hydrogen and gasoline can be burned together in internal combustion engines in a wide range of mixtures. In fact, the addition of small hydrogen quantities increases the flame speed at all gasoline equivalence ratios, so the engine operation at very lean air-gasoline mixtures is possible. In this paper, the performance of a spark-ignition engine, fuelled by hydrogen-enriched gasoline, has been evaluated by using a numerical model. A hybrid combustion model for a dual fuel, according to two one-step overall reactions, has been implemented in the KIVA-3V code. The indicated mean pressure and the fuel consumption have been evaluated at part-load operating points of a S.I. engine designed for gasoline fuelling. In particular, the possibility of operating at wide-open throttle, varying the equivalence ratio of air-gasoline mixture at fixed quantities of the supplemented hydrogen, has been studied.

From the article:



I realize you've put all your eggs in the naysayer basket and therefore must do what you can to save face, but you don't have the foggiest.

 

[balrog666]

[snip]
The following focuses on commericial vehicles using diesel fuel. The government is now beginning to acknowledge "HHO" injection as a viable technology.
GUIDELINES FOR USE OF HYDROGEN FUEL IN COMMERCIAL VEHICLES Final Report

Buzzzzz, wrong, strike one!

The report says nothing about it being "viable", economical, or even useful. Check for yourself: Here's the so-called "report".

CHEC guarntees 10% minimum fuel mileage increase with reported actual real world results much higher. That their system is installed on several thousand vehicles pretty much makes you the fool, unless of course you think trucking fleets are in the habit of flushing money down the toilet.

Buzzzzz, strike two.

The 10% guarantee promotion/advertising campaign is long over.

Performance and Fuel Consumption Estimation of a Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline Engine At Part-Load Operation

Buzzzzz, strike three.

The conclusions are based on a numerical simulation of unknown validity and don't appear to have ever been verified in the real world.


And you are out

... and the next batter for the woo team is up ...

 

[David Wong]

That's the other odd thing, every time one of these threads come up, the global warming deniers come along and support the water4gas guys.

Kind of weird, I don't know what their motivation is there. Other than that they just love to seize on chances to be laughably wrong about things.

 

[quarky]

I don't doubt that some H2 mixed in the fuel wouldn't make the engine run better...but if the H2 has to be made on-board, from an alternator that is powered by a conventional set-up, where are the savings?

 

[TMiguel]

First, ArvinMeritor in cooperation with MIT was developing a plasma reformer for use in ICE. They sold the technology to EMCON for ~$300 million however no word as of late what they are doing with it.

As stated previously, an electrolyzer "HHO" generator on an OEM production vehicle is neither practical or even safe as the average Joe/Jane Idiot would likely ruin it or turn it into a disaster waiting to happen. Trucking firms and backyard mechanics are more suited for this. A gasoline reformer would be much better.

I've been doing this for over 10 years on 3 different vehicles. I raced cars for 25 years and worked in the automotive engineering business the last 15, 10 in Aerospace previous. It is not difficult to gain 20% using this mundane technology. My 2003 Durango 4.7L now has well over 60,000 miles logged with a 6 cell plate type electrolyzer with ~75% efficiency putting out 2.5-3.0 LPM. A new unit is in the works using this new technology. I really don't care about nabobs who don't have the ability or desire to experiment; leave that to those of us who do.

We can discuss the finer points and technical aspects of how it works, but that is available from various sources so there's no reason to impress with BS. The idea that an engine must be completely redesigned to run at leaner conditions comes from ignorance and is your way of attempting to make it appear you know the first thing about combustion processes and engine design.

Also, your example of increasing efficiency by eliminating the fuel pump is quite hilarious and would be undetectable. In fact, you couldn't measure the difference in efficiency by turning off the entire electrical system.

Having never purchased 'water4gas' or any other device I cannot comment on them, however have had correspondence with Fran Giroux who has much experience with "HHO", I have confidence in him.

The following focuses on commericial vehicles using diesel fuel. The government is now beginning to acknowledge "HHO" injection as a viable technology.
GUIDELINES FOR USE OF HYDROGEN FUEL IN COMMERCIAL VEHICLES Final Report







CHEC guarntees 10% minimum fuel mileage increase with reported actual real world results much higher. That their system is installed on several thousand vehicles pretty much makes you the fool, unless of course you think trucking fleets are in the habit of flushing money down the toilet.

Performance and Fuel Consumption Estimation of a Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline Engine At Part-Load Operation




From the article:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1032348f2460c17095.jpg[/qimg]


I realize you've put all your eggs in the naysayer basket and therefore must do what you can to save face, but you don't have the foggiest.

Woo Alert!!
Are you an engineer? NO!
I am, so is GreyIce, so a bunch of other people here, we actually know about this stuff (you see is kind of like our life). And everyone knows here you are talking nonsense, we are immune to this sort of bull you know. So drop it, it doesn’t stick around here.

 

[David Rodale]

Woo Alert!!
Are you an engineer? NO!
I am, so is GreyIce, so a bunch of other people here, we actually know about this stuff (you see is kind of like our life). And everyone knows here you are talking nonsense, we are immune to this sort of bull you know. So drop it, it doesn’t stick around here.

What makes you think I'm not an engineer? Of course, anyone can claim anything in an anonymous forum right? If you are an "engineer" maybe it is time to leave the cubicle, stop playing video games and spend some time in the real world.

The documentation is there, and the theoretical basis for how it works is available. Until you can come up with something to refute the sources provided, you are just rambling on and appear to be upset because the evidence does not follow your ignorant rantings.

All you've done is chosen 'water4gas' as the poster child, which from what I can tell is a joke.

GreyICE knows by now it is not a theoretical impossibility but can't bring himself around to conceding the point. You and balrog666 are just a couple of antagonists.

Now, answer this question: is HFI a scam and if so how do they stay in business? Where are the hoards of ripped off trucking firms demanding their money back? Why does DOE list them in their report?

 

[GreyICE]

Also, your example of increasing efficiency by eliminating the fuel pump is quite hilarious and would be undetectable. In fact, you couldn't measure the difference in efficiency by turning off the entire electrical system.

I love how you're supposedly an auto mechanic but you think turning off the fuel pump would be undetectable.

I realize you've put all your eggs in the naysayer basket and therefore must do what you can to save face, but you don't have the foggiest.

Better apply Henry's Law then.

 

[Hindmost]

This just keeps popping up...so a real mechanic put it to the test and guess what...this is too interesting:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4276846.html?series=19

Of course, I went quite a few rounds on this in the past...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115301&highlight=water4gas

Too many will lose money on this scam. Especially with gas prices so high.

glenn

 

[balrog666]

This just keeps popping up...so a real mechanic put it to the test and guess what...this is too interesting:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4276846.html?series=19

Of course, I went quite a few rounds on this in the past...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115301&highlight=water4gas

Too many will lose money on this scam. Especially with gas prices so high.

glenn

Gosh, do you think they might be shills?

 

[TMiguel]

What makes you think I'm not an engineer?

That will be answered very shortly.

The documentation is there, and the theoretical basis for how it works is available. Until you can come up with something to refute the sources provided, you are just rambling on and appear to be upset because the evidence does not follow your ignorant rantings.

First of all you are extremely dependent on somebody else’s sources and forget that those sources where written by some one that can (put it bluntly) a complete idiot. Just because you find something written somewhere doesn’t make it right.
Second of all I do not criticise the sources, but rather the person that brought the sources, because he didn’t realise that none of them is a bit useful for the debate at hand.
We will pick this up later on the bottom.

GreyICE knows by now it is not a theoretical impossibility but can't bring himself around to conceding the point. You and balrog666 are just a couple of antagonists.

And don’t think that happened, and if they did they should reconsider.

Now, answer this question: is HFI a scam and if so how do they stay in business? Where are the hoards of ripped off trucking firms demanding their money back? Why does DOE list them in their report?

Ok let’s go finally to the point. *Drum roll*
Because they do NOT ELECTROLISE HIDROGEN FROM WATER ON BOARD!

The government is now beginning to acknowledge "HHO" injection as a viable technology.

Really what kind of molecule is “HHO”? Can it be “H2O” (water)? I’m not sure, water may burn better.

(Do I still need to answer how did I know you are not an engineer?)

Having never purchased 'water4gas' or any other device I cannot comment on them, however have had correspondence with Fran Giroux who has much experience with "HHO", I have confidence in him.

Which is basically the exact same scam has water4gas, which violates the exact same laws of thermodynamics. If you say it just improves efficiency (wastes less heat), how come you by introducing a parasite element on an engine (engineered to waste has less has possibly and still produce a considerable amount of power) like WATER is going to help?

P.S. I should get paid to pass people stupidity certificates, too many people are starting to get certificates.

 

[Cuddles]

Yeah... You didn't read the dam thing. If you did you wouldn't be parroting the same argument. This is why I said your cutting yourself with occam's razor. Everything you basically said is a grossly inaccurate generalization. The antirazor:

If you ever consider actually reading my posts, you will let me know won't you?

 

[King of the Americas]

The "Water 4 Gas" scam, in all of it's various incarnations, is just a simple magic trick, and the automobile is the misdirection in the act.

The automobile is just a prop... like the magician's handkerchief, it's only purpose in the act is to lure the audience's attention away from "the trick".

Let's break the claim down to it's fundamentals... The basic claim is that the "Water 4 Gas" gizmo uses a little bit of electricity, to produce a lot of fuel... specifically, hydrogen. It also produces oxygen, but oxygen isn't a fuel, so we can remove it from the equation.

So... we take our "Water 4 Gas" gizmo, and we plop it down on a bench... no automobile needed. We hook the gizmo up to a standard car battery, and we attach a meter to measure the amount of electricity the gizmo is consuming while it's "doing it's thing." (This is a very simple measurement which can be done with a meter you can buy at any Radio Shack for less than 40 bucks.) Then we attach a plastic trash bag to the gizmos output port... tape it up nice and airtight.

Next... we flip the switch, and let the gizmo work it's magic for an hour or so. At the end of the hour, we flip the switch off.

We then calculate the amount of electricity the gizmo consumed, and convert it into a standard unit of energy like Joules. Next we determine the volume of hydrogen the gizmo has produced, and then we convert the known energy content of that volume of hydrogen into Joules.

The is basic Science 101 stuff... it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure it out.

Compare the two... if "Output Joules" exceeds "Input Joules"... hot damn! We got us a free lunch!

Here's the spoiler... the "Output Joules" will NOT exceed the "Input Joules"... as sure as God made little green apples, and they're ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

After carefully reviewing the water4gas claims, I can't say your argument refutes them.

The Hydrogen & Oxygen, 'itself' isn't the energy produced, but rather burning it along with the car's gas yeilds more energy from said gas...

My mechanic buddy is still pressuring me to come up with some more real world testing, before he abandons the cause. He is dead set on an actual dyno-test.

As an efficiency nut, I am always on the lookout for a potential savings device or practice. That said, this one sounded too good to be true, so I found myself here.

(Hey man, what are the chances that I will be receiving some 'incentive', from you? I've got some killer products to have you savor!)

 

[Henners]

After carefully reviewing the water4gas claims, I can't say your argument refutes them.

The Hydrogen & Oxygen, 'itself' isn't the energy produced, but rather burning it along with the car's gas yeilds more energy from said gas...

My mechanic buddy is still pressuring me to come up with some more real world testing, before he abandons the cause. He is dead set on an actual dyno-test.

As an efficiency nut, I am always on the lookout for a potential savings device or practice. That said, this one sounded too good to be true, so I found myself here.

(Hey man, what are the chances that I will be receiving some 'incentive', from you? I've got some killer products to have you savor!)

You should definitely go into Politics, or snake oil.

For pity's sakes, don't become a fire fighter.

 

[GreyICE]

P.S. I should get paid to pass people stupidity certificates, too many people are starting to get certificates.

You'd probably find yourself signing your name under your name one of these days.

Arrogance always comes back to bite the arrogant.

Of course if you're debunking Water4Gas people or Global Warming denial, the payback might be a long time in coming

 

[TMiguel]

You'd probably find yourself signing your name under your name one of these days.

Arrogance always comes back to bite the arrogant.

Of course if you're debunking Water4Gas people or Global Warming denial, the payback might be a long time in coming

I know it is dangerous to unleash the dogs because they may come around and bite you (no one is free of mistake), but I some how had the felling I had to put this subject immediately to death (being a scam an all that).
I will be more careful in the future.