Water 4 Gas

[Brian-M]

I briefly owned an old Ford Falcon (early eighties) which had an "econometer" in the dashboard. It showed manifold pressure to give a rough guide to fuel consumption.

The idea of monitoring fuel consumption for more efficient driving isn't new.

 

[temporalillusion]

My 2000 VW Passat shows the fuel consumption real time.

 

[bruto]

I rented a car with a real time mpg readout. It was interesting, if a little distracting, and a useful way of finding out where a car's sweet spots are.

 

[arthwollipot]

I briefly owned an old Ford Falcon (early eighties) which had an "econometer" in the dashboard. It showed manifold pressure to give a rough guide to fuel consumption.

Yep. I had a little red Camira with the same thing. I attribute my economical driving style to that gauge. I watched it like a hawk.

 

[Boran]

I rented a car with a real time mpg readout. It was interesting, if a little distracting, and a useful way of finding out where a car's sweet spots are.

Careful with that, My car has a L/100KM readout, but it's off by 0.6L/100KM (it indicates 0.6L lower than it really is)

Calculations at the pump are still the most reliable.

 

[politas]

I briefly owned an old Ford Falcon (early eighties) which had an "econometer" in the dashboard. It showed manifold pressure to give a rough guide to fuel consumption.

The idea of monitoring fuel consumption for more efficient driving isn't new.

A gauge which pretty much told you how hard you were pressing the accelerator, only backwards. Always seemed like a waste of dashboard space to me.

 

[quarky]

sometimes its important to watch the road. There's crazy people driving nearby.

 

[bruto]

A gauge which pretty much told you how hard you were pressing the accelerator, only backwards. Always seemed like a waste of dashboard space to me.

Of very limited use for economy, but a vacuum gauge is really handy for engine diagnostics, and I'd be happy to have one built in. For actual fuel economy, vacuum can trick you, because attempting to accelerate without dropping the gauge will result in acceleration times so long that the apparent economy gain is offset by the time it takes to get up to speed. You do better just to push the pedal and worry about economy once you're cruising.

 

[arthwollipot]

A gauge which pretty much told you how hard you were pressing the accelerator, only backwards. Always seemed like a waste of dashboard space to me.

Of very limited use for economy, but a vacuum gauge is really handy for engine diagnostics, and I'd be happy to have one built in. For actual fuel economy, vacuum can trick you, because attempting to accelerate without dropping the gauge will result in acceleration times so long that the apparent economy gain is offset by the time it takes to get up to speed. You do better just to push the pedal and worry about economy once you're cruising.

Politas, you'll get this because it has geographical references - others probably won't. When I had the red Camira, and was living in Mawson, I would go to work at the Bureau of Statistics in Belconnen on $10/week fuel. I think that's what - 60km round trip, five times a week? And petrol was a lot cheaper back then (this was mid-90s, I think). I wouldn't have done that without that gauge. Yes, it told me how hard I was pushing the accelerator. But the direct visual feedback is what changed my behaviour. I still use habits in my Prius (gentler acceleration, trailing throttle) that I developed in the Camira by watching that gauge.

 

[Stout]

There may be a placebo effect in the effort to believe in fuel savings.

If you needed to 'proove' something bogus, you might inadvertently do things that will actually improve mileage...like keeping tire pressure high; driving slower; accelerating gentler; keeping the engine tuned better; etc.

sometimes, for some people, it takes a woo-belief to activate other, rational efforts.
and, if that's what it takes, then its good...as long as you don't have to pay.
Homeopathy is similar. Take the magic pill; inadvertently start doing more healthful things to proove that the magic pill is real.

Problem is, sugar pills are cheap; hydrogen hydroxide systems probably aren't.

That's an interesting idea, after all if you go to the trouble to actually buy and install one of these things you're obviously going to want it to work.

I'm no mechanic but what are we talking about to make and install a water4gas system ? A day ? half a day ? So given time and effort and no doubt there's a pride component at work here ( hey...look what I just did to my ride ) that the sucker customer might just do what he can to prove to himself that this system works.

 

[blutoski]

That's an interesting idea, after all if you go to the trouble to actually buy and install one of these things you're obviously going to want it to work.

I'm no mechanic but what are we talking about to make and install a water4gas system ? A day ? half a day ? So given time and effort and no doubt there's a pride component at work here ( hey...look what I just did to my ride ) that the sucker customer might just do what he can to prove to himself that this system works.

This is certainly the case for many things, and not limited to fuel economy gadgets. Placebo effect is not quite the right terminology - because they're not doing an actual experiment with a placebo group - but it's probably triggering some similar psychological artefacts.

Specifically, a term I like to use for this is 'investment'. It's not referring to a dollar-value investment, so much as an emotional or social investment. It can apply to anything from quack remedies to political partisanship. To outsiders, it can look like the person has lost his mind, and the internal cognition is not clear: does the person really believe this?

In the case of the automobiles, would our OP have made the same observations if he was driving the car?

As an example, I had a coworker who was using a quack hair-restoral remedy. Every day, he'd come in and tell us that his hair was obviously growing thicker and lusher, and that his bald spot was shrinking. A year later, we're looking at office Christmas party photos, and it's blatantly obvious that he's worse a year later. He says that that's just our opinion, and he's certain that his hair has grown out more, and it's his hair, so he's right and we're wrong. Okaaaay...

 

[quarky]

blutoski, I agree; placebo effect isn't the right term. Emotional investment is more accurate, although the two overlap some. With something as black and white as hair growth, though, there isn't much you can do, behaviour-wise, to get more hair.

Whereas, if you're invested in seeing health improvements from a sugar pill, or increased gas mileage from a magic wand, there's lots of little things you can do to help prove your case.

It must be fun, to believe, especially if your life improves in any way because of it, which is quite possible. In such situations, a rational thinker can be a real downer...which can inadvertently add more gusto to the woo.

Such awkwardness is likely to be temporary, as facts have a way of coming home to roost...but society at large is focused on the temporary.
In some ways, ill-logic is like cocaine.

 

[Hindmost]

This is certainly the case for many things, and not limited to fuel economy gadgets. Placebo effect is not quite the right terminology - because they're not doing an actual experiment with a placebo group - but it's probably triggering some similar psychological artefacts.

Specifically, a term I like to use for this is 'investment'. It's not referring to a dollar-value investment, so much as an emotional or social investment. It can apply to anything from quack remedies to political partisanship. To outsiders, it can look like the person has lost his mind, and the internal cognition is not clear: does the person really believe this?

In the case of the automobiles, would our OP have made the same observations if he was driving the car?

As an example, I had a coworker who was using a quack hair-restoral remedy. Every day, he'd come in and tell us that his hair was obviously growing thicker and lusher, and that his bald spot was shrinking. A year later, we're looking at office Christmas party photos, and it's blatantly obvious that he's worse a year later. He says that that's just our opinion, and he's certain that his hair has grown out more, and it's his hair, so he's right and we're wrong. Okaaaay...

I would call it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Most people suffer its affects. (including me)

glenn

 

[David Wong]

STOP THE PRESSES!

Why are we still talking about Water4Gas? Here is a $200 device you stick on the end of your tailpipe, that increases fuel efficiency by 5 MPG!!!!

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/eco-friendly-car-filtration-device-blade.php


Wow! And doing it at the absolute furthest point from your engine! Amazing!

Sorry, I realize this is not a HHO device but I thought I'd bring it up and didn't see a general automotive snake oil thread.

 

[bruto]

STOP THE PRESSES!

Why are we still talking about Water4Gas? Here is a $200 device you stick on the end of your tailpipe, that increases fuel efficiency by 5 MPG!!!!

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/eco-friendly-car-filtration-device-blade.php


Wow! And doing it at the absolute furthest point from your engine! Amazing!

Sorry, I realize this is not a HHO device but I thought I'd bring it up and didn't see a general automotive snake oil thread.

Wow, it smooths out the pulses in your exhaust and reduces particulates!

I gotta git me one of those!

Some of the comments are pretty funny.

 

[arthwollipot]

I saw that on Digg. But I didn't bother posting it because I'm lazy.

 

[Stout]

Specifically, a term I like to use for this is 'investment'. It's not referring to a dollar-value investment, so much as an emotional or social investment. It can apply to anything from quack remedies to political partisanship. To outsiders, it can look like the person has lost his mind, and the internal cognition is not clear: does the person really believe this?

I like that term, investment, after all nobody wants to be proven "wrong" on an idea they've subscribed to and there's a natural resistance to having one's ideas shredded by contrary evidence.

For years I believed and repeated the whole lemmings thing and it wasn't until a few years ago that I actually learned the truth. I'll admit I felt like a bit of an idiot having repeated the ideas of lemmings and mass suicide in the animal world and I actually thought "this can't be true" for a minute or so.

Another one I was "into" was the whole *science says bumblebees can't fly* yet obviously they do idea. TBH, I'd actually forgotten about the idea until recently when it came up elsewhere and i was presented the evidence that yes, it's sort of true, ( bumblebees can't glide ) and again, I felt rather stupid having repeated that idea.

Mind you I adopted those positions pre-internet, so I pretty much took them on faith given that I learned them in university.

So yes, I'd invested time and effort into those ideas only to find that those investments had put me into the red, intellectually speaking and I was none too happy about it.

It must be fun, to believe, especially if your life improves in any way because of it, which is quite possible. In such situations, a rational thinker can be a real downer...which can inadvertently add more gusto to the woo.

This is very true and the also the main reason that when confronted with what I call *harmless woo* I tend to keep my mouth shut.

 

[blutoski]

I like that term, investment, after all nobody wants to be proven "wrong" on an idea they've subscribed to and there's a natural resistance to having one's ideas shredded by contrary evidence.

It's completely natural, and I have learned to work preemtively to reduce my chances of getting painted into a corner by phrasing my thoughts with the disclaimer that it's based on my current understanding of the situation, and can be altered with more and better information.

ie: "If this paper is correct..." or "Based on my reading of the literature in this field..." or "My understanding is that those regarded as experts in the field have published a position paper on this saying..."

 

[GreyICE]

Care to provide a cite for that 3? As the figures provided by Snow, and linked to in that article, say, that may be true if you ignore the container. Given that the whole point is that the container is big and heavy, that's really not very helpful.

How big and how heavy being obvious questions.

To start with, no-one has said that. It's also interesting that you quote the bits you think support you, but miss out parts of the same articles that say things like:

Amazing. If you remove lots of useful parts of a car, it's lighter. That's not a point in favour of air powered cars, it's a point in favour of making lighter cars. Except that it's not, because then you're in a very light deathtrap rather than a heavier car.

Lighter cars are deathtraps only on roads populated by heavier cars. Furthermore, on the exact places where compressed air cars are useful (city driving) collisions tend not to result in fatalities (at low speed, fatalities are a lot lower). You seem to be conflating several things here, mostly to slam the car.

Also, 'useful' seems not to be as limited as you think, since I already cited a production model that was lightweight and had what it needed.

Here are some other bits you apparently missed:

Amazing. Compressed air is three times worse than current batteries and has a maximum range of 7km, with even optimisitic manufacturers only claiming potential ranges of 140km. Yeah, looks like my comments about it being well behind and only having limited range were way off.

Current lithium-ion batteries. Which I noted. You didn't even pay attention to that.

Please read what I write next time.

 

[bruto]

Drifting a little off topic here....

The fact that compressed air cars are obviously short range, require high pressure, and are not thermally efficient does not with absolute necessity disqualify them from consideration in certain markets. As I understand it, current development is mainly in India, where there is less existing infrastructure to support other motive sources to begin with, and where the energy source most abundantly available is electricity from nuclear power. Electric cars might seem the natural choice there, but they recharge slowly, unless you set up battery exchanges, and this is costly and requires considerable overhead in stock, storage, theft prevention, inspection, and so forth, which might make battery exchange stations difficult to run in the hinterlands. High powered compressors, capable of providing a short-mileage but quick "refuel" might well be a good tradeoff in such a situation, if the cost of the electricity to run them is not the prime concern.

I'd be very surprised to see air powered cars getting a foothold in any market where there is already a well developed structure for distribution of fuel, or where electricity is not the cheapest form of power available.