Was the Soviet Union really socialist?

[Ausmerican]

If there is no stripping of money from the people, how does the money get into the pot? Magic pixies?

I think we call them taxes in most places.

So it's not magic pixies, it's people who put the money there. What if the people don't want to put the money in there?

I don't know. What usually happens to people that don't pay their taxes?

Interestingly enough, so was Jim Jones. This week marks the 30 years since the mass murders and suicides at Jonestown.

What exactly does this seemingly totally irrelevant factoid have to do with the topic? I am pretty sure you could list some crazy nuts from any ideology named.

 

[gtc]

I think we call them taxes in most places.

Since when have taxes been voluntary? If you don't think they are voluntary then read the post again.

I don't know. What usually happens to people that don't pay their taxes?

Read the post again.

What exactly does this seemingly totally irrelevant factoid have to do with the topic? I am pretty sure you could list some crazy nuts from any ideology named.

I just thought it interesting given it was the anniversary. Also his close relationship with the San Francisco political machine and dealings with Mondale and Carter's wife mirror Bill Ayers relationship with Chicago and Obama.

Quite fascinating.

 

[moon1969]

No it was a communist police state. Socialism and communism are two different things. Anyway what does this matter? There is no USSR and less some people in the USA want to bring it back?

 

[moon1969]

Communism was probaly one of the worst crimes in history. People talking about Lenin? Vladimir Lenin was just like Pol Pot
Here are some facts about Vladimir Lenin
Vladimir Lenin created the Soviet secret police
Vladimir Lenin started the Red Terror in Russia and the Civil war in Russia. All of these communist were evil and trying to defend what they did is evil.

 

[Ausmerican]

Since when have taxes been voluntary? If you don't think they are voluntary then read the post again.




Read the post again.




I just thought it interesting given it was the anniversary. Also his close relationship with the San Francisco political machine and dealings with Mondale and Carter's wife mirror Bill Ayers relationship with Chicago and Obama.

Quite fascinating.

I read the post. It said there was no stripping of money from people. That, to me, does not mean the same as saying there are no taxes. Indeed, the way it was written it sounded very much like progressive taxation. Do you feel taxation is "stripping" your money from you? Or paying into a collective fund to help pay for roads, bridges, police services, military forces, emergency services and in Aus, medical services?

Slightly OT but I think a large part of the problem in the U.S is the use of the word socialised when it comes to health care. If it had been only referred to as universal healthcare from the start I think it may have hit less trouble. But when you say socialised people hear socialism and it is immediately linked in peoples minds with communism and people are against it before they hear more than those two words.

 

[moon1969]

I don"t know if that was socialism when Joseph Stalin took my grandfather"s home in Impilahti Karelia. America and Russia are always on the same side. FDR and Stalin=Bush and Putin.

 

[Ausmerican]

I don"t know if that was socialism when Joseph Stalin took my grandfather"s home in Impilahti Karelia. America and Russia are always on the same side. FDR and Stalin=Bush and Putin.

Oh yes always.

Unless of course you discount from WW2 pretty much all the way up until now. Sheesh. Here's a tip, having trade agreements or diplomatic contact with a country does not mean you are on the same side as them. If that were so China would be considered a major ally of the United States.

Here's another tip, the first three words of this post are sarcasm. I just don't bother with smilies so I never learned the rolleyes smiley.

 

[gtc]

Do you feel taxation is "stripping" your money from you?

Of course. Don't you?

Or paying into a collective fund to help pay for roads, bridges, police services, military forces, emergency services and in Aus, medical services?

Aren't there things that you are forced to pay for that you wouldn't want to fund, if given the choice? I'm not just talking about the free-rider problem where you could get the benefit of the police without paying for it but things that you really don't want anyone to have to pay for.

Slightly OT but I think a large part of the problem in the U.S is the use of the word socialised when it comes to health care. If it had been only referred to as universal healthcare from the start I think it may have hit less trouble. But when you say socialised people hear socialism and it is immediately linked in peoples minds with communism and people are against it before they hear more than those two words.

The association may be deliberate but the word 'socialised' is probably as technically true as universal. Improving government provision of health care for the lower income would be socialised health care without being universal. But improving access to health care provided by the private sector could be universal health care but not technically socialised health care.

Calling it 'initiatives to improve health outcomes' is sadly less punchy.

 

[Ausmerican]

Of course. Don't you?



Aren't there things that you are forced to pay for that you wouldn't want to fund, if given the choice? I'm not just talking about the free-rider problem where you could get the benefit of the police without paying for it but things that you really don't want anyone to have to pay for.

Yes of course. I think everyone would say yes to that.
I also think if everyone drew up their lists of what they do want to pay for and what they don't the lists would be quite different. And if they ever invented a tax plan where you could say; "Yes, I want to pay in for this but no, not for that", not even accountants would look forward to tax time. I also like the fact that the government has enough money to fund things like NASA from taxes.

Bottom line is I would just like them to be more responsible and accountable as to what they do with the money they have and just as importantly, the money they have left over.

 

[bobrayner]

Workers were ruthlessly exploited for profit by managers and communist bureaucrats, in a manner similar to the exploitation endured by workers in capitalist societies at the hands of private business owners.

Like most workers in capitalist societies, I chose my job. If I didn't like the terms & conditions offered, I could look for another job. I consent to work here in return for being paid quite a lot of money. I can choose to spend this money however I like, although the democratically-elected government takes a portion which is mostly spent on supporting people who don't earn as much.

In what way is this exploitation?

By the way, not all people are workers. In modern societies, there are also many retirees, unemployed people, students, children &c. Also, all of these people are consumers - they buy goods and services made by others. Failing to consider these roles & activities will give an extremely distorted picture.

 

[dudalb]

I don"t know if that was socialism when Joseph Stalin took my grandfather"s home in Impilahti Karelia. America and Russia are always on the same side. FDR and Stalin=Bush and Putin.

I guess moon1969 never heard of the Cold War.
Moon and his obssession with Karelia reminds me of the die hards in the American South who are still calling the Civil War "the War Of Northren Aggresion".

 

[kookbreaker]

I guess moon1969 never heard of the Cold War.
Moon and his obssession with Karelia reminds me of the die hards in the American South who are still calling the Civil War "the War Of Northren Aggresion".

If they use that term I like to call it 'The Failed War To Preserve Slavery'.

 

[charles brough]

Communism was probaly one of the worst crimes in history. People talking about Lenin? Vladimir Lenin was just like Pol Pot
Here are some facts about Vladimir Lenin
Vladimir Lenin created the Soviet secret police
Vladimir Lenin started the Red Terror in Russia and the Civil war in Russia. All of these communist were evil and trying to defend what they did is evil.

Yes, Lenin and the workers revolted and brought about "The Revolution," but all nations have secret police---such as the CIA and a dozen or so of our other "intelligence" organizations. The Terror in the Soviet system really began after he died.

The real "evil" with the Soviet system and the Marxist system now and earlier in East Asia is that the whole ideology is a defective system espousing dictatorship, class war, an absence of a moral system, and based on an intellectual nonsense called "Dialectical Materialism."

 

[gtc]

The real "evil" with the Soviet system and the Marxist system now and earlier in East Asia is that the whole ideology is a defective system espousing dictatorship, class war, an absence of a moral system, and based on an intellectual nonsense called "Dialectical Materialism."

But other than that, there's really nothing wrong with it.

 

[bobrayner]

But other than that, there's really nothing wrong with it.

All right, but apart from the nuclear contamination, the decrepit hospitals, rote-learning of marxist myths, alcoholism, secret police, arbitrary detention and torture, rusty old Volgas, poverty, bureaucracy, and support for countless insurgencies around the world, what have the Russians ever done for us?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

 

[Thunder]

. America and Russia are always on the same side. FDR and Stalin=Bush and Putin.

Um...hmmm...ever heard of the "Cold War"?

Ever heard of the "Cuban Missile Crisis"?

My guess is no.

 

[FarmallMTA]

The Soviet Union wasn't socialist ONLY if one subscribes to the following logic:
Major Premise: Socialism is GOOD
Minor Premise: USSR was NOT GOOD
Conclusion: USSR was NOT socialistic

Only those approaching the question convinced that socialism is good can conclude the USSR wasn't socialistic. This, in turn, is a question of mindset, as of religion, rather than one of demonstrable proof.

 

[FarmallMTA]

Is the country run by a junta, president for life, or do the countrys owners buy the elected politicians?

Note: bear in mind the current situation in/from Illinois...

 

[charles brough]

But other than that, there's really nothing wrong with it.

No, they were just examples of what is wrong with it. In "Destiny & Civilization," I go into more depth and include the rest.

However, I should say that there are a few constructive qualities as well. One is that it is truly a system based on the brotherhood of man, a true universal brotherhood belief system---except that it discriminates against businessmen (in China, they are pampered but still hated) and China has corrupted their Marxism to be nationalist-Chinese oriented. It also idealized gender equality. And, finally, it is atheistic and it has managed to exert some control over population growth.

As has been said here, there is no all-bad or all-good in the world.

 

[Toke]

I know that illinois is a state in usa.
What else shuld I know about it?