Was the primary evidence for 9/11 obtained through torture?

[FineWine]

aggle-rithm is misrepresenting my stated position, which is that a large chunk of the "evidence" that informs the widely believed, 'Us verses Them', 911 plot narrative was informed by "evidence" gleaned from torture.

Though balking at using the word torture, Bush-regime insider and executive director of the 9/11 Commission, Philip D. Zelikow, agrees, having stated that "quite a bit, if not most" of [the Commission's] information on the 9/11 conspiracy "did come from the interrogations."

http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624314.aspx






Would you like to point out how I have been hypocritical, Jackanory?




I have talked at length with a UK special forces veteran about his training. Far from being character-building he believes that his experience of practice torture crippled him emotionally and physically for life.

Explain how waterboarding cripples one physically for life.

 

[aggle-rithm]

aggle-rithm is misrepresenting my stated position, which is that a large chunk of the "evidence" that informs the widely believed, 'Us verses Them', 911 plot narrative was informed by "evidence" gleaned from torture.

Yes, I know you like to use neutral and somewhat vague words like "informs" to avoid committing to a well-defined position. However, it's clear what you were inferring. "How can we believe the 'preferred narrative' when the evidence was gleaned from torture, and therefore unreliable?"

Is that not your position? Do you now say that you believe that most of the information is from reliable sources?

Though balking at using the word torture, Bush-regime insider and executive director of the 9/11 Commission, Philip D. Zelikow, agrees, having stated that "quite a bit, if not most" of [the Commission's] information on the 9/11 conspiracy "did come from the interrogations."

http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/624314.aspx

Again, you don't have to take an authority's word on it. You can actually READ THE REPORT and see for yourself what information was obtained by interrogation of detainees and what came from other sources. You can also see that most of the information from the interrogations was corroborated by other sources.

If you dismiss the report as a work of fiction, then why cite the report to support your position?

 

[aggle-rithm]

I have talked at length with a UK special forces veteran about his training. Far from being character-building he believes that his experience of practice torture crippled him emotionally and physically for life.

Must have been part of the screening process.

 

[Jackanory]

"quite a bit, if not most" of [the Commission's] information on the 9/11 conspiracy "did come from the interrogations."

Would you like to point out how I have been hypocritical, Jackanory?

I have talked at length with a UK special forces veteran about his training. Far from being character-building he believes that his experience of practice torture crippled him emotionally and physically for life.

You dont seem to understand what interrogation means and portray it as meaning torture. Interrogation takes on many forms and depends who is using it. The UK police use interrogation techniques on the general public as do the NYPD and FBI- they ask questions for hours, a form of interrogation. The UK military use interrogation techniques on combatants (those such as KSM)- they detain them, isolate them, use sleep deprevation, stress positions, white noise and ask questions for hours. Branches of the UK military use more forms of interrogation for training purposes. It semi conditions military personel who are more likely to become captive due to the job and locations they enter. Absolutely nothing new to report about that. UK military personel know it. Its run of the mill stuff and common knowledge. Like it or not thats the military. I dont expect an office clerk in a bank to accept it as being run of the mill stuff but tough.

As for KSM and his associates. At training camps they dont just learn how to use an RPG, AK47 and build crude IED's. A little more goes into their training. Which also includes counter measures, counter intelligence, anti surveilance, ambush and anti ambush techniques, evasive driving techniques, house clearance techniques, interrogation techniques and counter interrogation techniques. They are trained, as are UK military, to give as little away as possible. KSM and his assocciates are probably more adept at dishing it out than receiving it and use far more techniques that would make your toes curl.
Failing that they simply cut your head off and post the video on youtube.

Your hypocricy stinks in almost every post you make. You either defend mass murderers or winge at how a government couldnt prevent such a thing as 911. Hypocrite with a capital H.

I have probably served with and met more 'special forces' personel than you will ever get to speak too and still do. I very much doubt that your friend suffered those experiences from training senarios from within the UK military. He wouldnt have passed the selection process, FACT. If his psychological and physical welbeing actually happened at all it was probably at the hands of the likes of KSM, and not through run of the mill military training.

Character building is normal everyday terminology in the UK military. I know through many years of personal experience. FACT. A semi naked river crossing in February at -5 is termed as character building. A 30 mile yomp over Dartmore with 50lb is termed as character building. A 3 day sleep deprevation exercise with stress positions and white noise is termed as character building. Terminology that you and many other ill informed would fail to understand. Sky hooks, tartan paint, long stand, short stand are also terms used. Would you understand when and why they where used?

What is SAS selection? What is US Navy Seal hell week? It would be torture to the average joe in a bank in Ohio or to the average arm chair poster on forums, but to military personel it builds character.

 

[funk de fino]

They knock you down to build you back up. Non military google fu experts have no idea.

They would rather sit on the sidelines and pretend they know.

Most special forces guys I served with or spoke with did not speak very much about stuff like that anyway.

 

[Jackanory]

They knock you down to build you back up. Non military google fu experts have no idea.

They would rather sit on the sidelines and pretend they know.

Most special forces guys I served with or spoke with did not speak very much about stuff like that anyway.

Not even to their wives, let alone a random poster to a public forum - especialy one who uses the name Jihad. The mind boggles.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I very much doubt that your friend suffered those experiences from training senarios from within the UK military. He wouldnt have passed the selection process, FACT.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know about the UK, but in the US they figured out during WWII, when most of the guys they sent into combat were essentially useless because they refused to fire their weapons, that psychological screening of personnel was critical to military success. I would imagine the screening would be far more stringent for special forces than for the ordinary grunts.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

They knock you down to build you back up. Non military google fu experts have no idea.

They would rather sit on the sidelines and pretend they know.

Most special forces guys I served with or spoke with did not speak very much about stuff like that anyway.

I knew a guy who told me he used to be something of a delinquent in his misspent youth. He told me his whole world view got flipped around when he carried his chronic misbehavior into the army and managed to get himself sent to military jail. He never told me details, only that they just simply break you in military jail. To paraphrase Yoda, there is no "Try" there isn't even "Do Not", they set out to break you and they succeed.

The difference between most of us folks and special forces troops is they volunteer for this treatment.

 

[JihadJane]

Explain how waterboarding cripples one physically for life.

The person I was referring to was suffering from the consequences of being trained to resist electric shocks, not waterboarding.

Potential long term physical effects of waterboarding: death (drowning, heart attack); broken bones and other serious injuries (victim struggles to escape death). Lung damage (water inhalation and repeated gagging reflex), brain damage (oxygen deficiency).

Psychological damage (PTSD, panic attacks, depression) can also manifest physically in disabling ways, some of them fatal (e.g. suicide, drug/alcohol abuse, lack of self-care).

You dont seem to understand what interrogation means and portray it as meaning torture. Interrogation takes on many forms and depends who is using it. The UK police use interrogation techniques on the general public as do the NYPD and FBI- they ask questions for hours, a form of interrogation. The UK military use interrogation techniques on combatants (those such as KSM)- they detain them, isolate them, use sleep deprevation, stress positions, white noise and ask questions for hours. Branches of the UK military use more forms of interrogation for training purposes. It semi conditions military personel who are more likely to become captive due to the job and locations they enter. Absolutely nothing new to report about that. UK military personel know it. Its run of the mill stuff and common knowledge. Like it or not thats the military. I dont expect an office clerk in a bank to accept it as being run of the mill stuff but tough.

What you describe as run of the mill interrogation (sleep deprivation, stress positions, white noise) is considered to be torture under the UN Convention Against Torture.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html#Article 2.1

Waterboarding, also.

As for KSM and his associates. At training camps they dont just learn how to use an RPG, AK47 and build crude IED's. A little more goes into their training. Which also includes counter measures, counter intelligence, anti surveilance, ambush and anti ambush techniques, evasive driving techniques, house clearance techniques, interrogation techniques and counter interrogation techniques. They are trained, as are UK military, to give as little away as possible. KSM and his assocciates are probably more adept at dishing it out than receiving it and use far more techniques that would make your toes curl.
Failing that they simply cut your head off and post the video on youtube.

Is this a variation of the "We're better than the Taliban" argument? I don't get your point.

Your hypocricy stinks in almost every post you make. You either defend mass murderers or winge at how a government couldnt prevent such a thing as 911. Hypocrite with a capital H.

It's easy to spout stinky abstractions. Perhaps you could provide a link to where I defend mass murderers and another for my alleged wingeing.

I have probably served with and met more 'special forces' personel than you will ever get to speak too and still do. I very much doubt that your friend suffered those experiences from training senarios from within the UK military. He wouldnt have passed the selection process, FACT. If his psychological and physical welbeing actually happened at all it was probably at the hands of the likes of KSM, and not through run of the mill military training.

The person wasn't a friend. I have no reasons to doubt what he said. The symptoms he experienced didn't manifest while he was in the service.

Character building is normal everyday terminology in the UK military. I know through many years of personal experience. FACT. A semi naked river crossing in February at -5 is termed as character building. A 30 mile yomp over Dartmore with 50lb is termed as character building. A 3 day sleep deprevation exercise with stress positions and white noise is termed as character building. Terminology that you and many other ill informed would fail to understand. Sky hooks, tartan paint, long stand, short stand are also terms used. Would you understand when and why they where used?

What is SAS selection? What is US Navy Seal hell week? It would be torture to the average joe in a bank in Ohio or to the average arm chair poster on forums, but to military personel it builds character.

I don't get your point here, either. Are you saying that this character building can prevent physical after-effects and things like Post Traumatic Sress Disorder from developing, so therefore I can’t be telling the truth?

Many veterans experience disabling physical and psychological trauma-related symptoms for years after their service, sometimes for life. A militarily well-built character is no protection against such symptoms, whatever their genesis.

Not even to their wives, let alone a random poster to a public forum - especialy one who uses the name Jihad. The mind boggles.

Do you think I’m a "random poster to a public forum" everywhere I go?


JihadJane is just a screen name and, coincidentally, a name sometimes given to the well-known US traitor, Jane Fonda.

I notice that you do not precede all your posts with “Are you sitting comfortably? ... Then I’ll begin”.

 

[Jackanory]

The person I was referring to was suffering from the consequences of being trained to resist electric shocks, not waterboarding.

Potential long term physical effects of waterboarding: death (drowning, heart attack); broken bones and other serious injuries (victim struggles to escape death). Lung damage (water inhalation and repeated gagging reflex), brain damage (oxygen deficiency).

Psychological damage (PTSD, panic attacks, depression) can also manifest physically in disabling ways, some of them fatal (e.g. suicide, drug/alcohol abuse, lack of self-care).


What you describe as run of the mill interrogation (sleep deprivation, stress positions, white noise) is considered to be torture under the UN Convention Against Torture.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html#Article 2.1

Waterboarding, also.

Is this a variation of the "We're better than the Taliban" argument? I don't get your point.

It's easy to spout stinky abstractions. Perhaps you could provide a link to where I defend mass murderers and another for my alleged wingeing.


The person wasn't a friend. I have no reasons to doubt what he said. The symptoms he experienced didn't manifest while he was in the service.

I don't get your point here, either. Are you saying that this character building can prevent physical after-effects and things like Post Traumatic Sress Disorder from developing, so therefore I can’t be telling the truth?

Many veterans experience disabling physical and psychological trauma-related symptoms for years after their service, sometimes for life. A militarily well-built character is no protection against such symptoms, whatever their genesis.

Do you think I’m a "random poster to a public forum" everywhere I go?


JihadJane is just a screen name and, coincidentally, a name sometimes given to the well-known US traitor, Jane Fonda.

I notice that you do not precede all your posts with “Are you sitting comfortably? ... Then I’ll begin”.

As expected, you missinterpret and mislead your way out of the hole you dig. Night night

 

[dropzone]

evidence for 9/11 obtained through torture?

Nope. It was a combination of:

1. We saw it on TV. I've been in the computer grapics biz since the early 80s and I know when someone is trying to fool me. Ergo: Two planes hit the WTC.

2. A knowledge from years in the metals industry of how heat affects metal. And the knowledge, in a fire, that steel bends before wood fails. Thus the (non-9/11) photo of two I-beams U'ed over a wooden truss was an obvious result. To a BARELY, much less "well," trained mind a glance at the fires showed that a collapse was probably inevitable.

3. 19 suspects, including 4 pilots who could do the job, as could any player of MS Flight Simulator, were together on the planes.

4. Osama bin Laden, an engineer but a poor one since he expressed surprise at the success of the mission, expressed pleasure at the success of the mission. Moron thought the towers would keel over, not drop straight down.

5. NO OTHER CLAIM HAS NOT BEEN DISMISSED OUT OF HAND! This may seem like evidence that an "official explanation" is being adhered to, but that belief shows how little one knows of the engineering community. We're cranks, and I'm not surprised that some have gone to the Truther side. What is telling is how FEW of us have not. When a lot of engineering types agree don't DISAGREE on something, you can be pretty sure of what they don't disagree on.

 

[JihadJane]

As expected, you missinterpret and mislead your way out of the hole you dig. Night night

Thanks for your informative response!

 

[T.A.M.]

Hash away Doc. I dont do politics sorry

Well, I don't do politics in the 9/11 CT subforum, so I will leave it as saying, we seem to differ in our opinions of what is considered torture...and that is fine..it is human to disagree.

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

Explain how waterboarding cripples one physically for life.

Physically...unlikely...you are correct.
Mentally...depends on the response of the individual.

TAM