Was the Pentagon AA77's primary target?

[Travis]

From the very beginning the turn Hani made always screamed out to me that he was an amateur that simply came upon his target while still at too high an altitude.

If you think about it a professional military pilot would never have done it that way. A military pilot would have started decent much sooner and gotten the plane down to near tree top level come in on a beeline for the Pentagon and hit it square and true. I simply cannot understand how some people think that turn signifies a pro pilot was doing it.

 

[Reheat]

If you think about it a professional military pilot would never have done it that way. A military pilot would have started decent much sooner and gotten the plane down to near tree top level come in on a beeline for the Pentagon and hit it square and true. I simply cannot understand how some people think that turn signifies a pro pilot was doing it.

Exactly! Virtually any competent pilot whether military or not would have planned the descent without the turn. It should have been easy to do, but apparently he attempted to acquire the Pentagon visually and due to the sun, lost sight. A competent pilot would have used the onboard DME equipment and planned the descend appropriately.

As the approach unfolded he ended up at 7,000-8,000' ~5 nm with a required descent rate approaching 10,000 fpm to make it directly from that position. That would be an eye watering descent in an airliner, so he elected to do the descending turn. All of this is evidence of an amateur pilot with some degree of flying judgment, which is exactly what he was.

 

[beachnut]

Ease up, beachnut. I'm not a truther; no need to state the obvious. Besides, you're misinterpreting my statement. Don't you remember reports on 9/11 speculating that the reason UA93 crashed in that area was relatively nearby Camp David?

I was considering if the maneuvers were due to poor navigation and last minute decisions. As it turns out, after a little research, it was relatively normal piloting, at least, for the big turn.


High speed flying at low altitude, clipping light poles, crashing into a building - sounds pretty extreme to me. I'd be in a state of shock if I saw that; I don't know about you, though.

"Erratic" isn't similar to "not too smooth"?


Like I said, I'm not a truther. I didn't ask a question to challenge, but to get info and opinions. Unlike a truther, I can ask questions and accept answers, as long as the answers make sense, which they did here.

Besides, Sabrina said I was logical and sane. Thanks, Sabrina!

You have a good point on the poor nav, and not being ready stuff. He was behind, not thinking ahead. I can see that in your OP. Sorry for the truther attack mode, I was thinking about Charlie Sheen saying how it was some impossible super flying BS.

Camp David is just between PA and DC; I had some truther make up stuff about that also.

You are exactly right, his turns and pitch control were erratic; varied back and forth.

Hitting buildings is extreme; yep, hitting poles and stuff is extreme. You are right on that. I doubt they even felt the light posts. You sit so high, you could drag your aircraft in if you are new; they tell us the first time in a big aircraft to level off at 20 feet; then you pull the throttles back and you touch down.

You hit it! The guy was behind the aircraft; "last minute" stuff. I did not read your post close to enough to see you nailed the flying stuff. Sorry for the tone, I do not use very good terminology in the first place; I wish I had posted the things you just said. Your point is a big thing you have to learn flying large aircraft at 300 + knots; Being behind the aircraft (not thinking ahead), is a major thing you have to learn in pilot training.

Your comments would be a good critique on the flight.

 

[HL7442]

I doubt they even felt the light posts. down.



At most the sensation would be a slight thump.

 

[HL7442]

From the very beginning the turn Hani made always screamed out to me that he was an amateur that simply came upon his target while still at too high an altitude.

Exactly.

 

[gumboot]

True, and any number of buildings would have served nicely. I disagree that the WH should have been any sort of VFR challenge, though.

Mohammed Atta disagreed with you.

And may I say something about terrorism and DC? Take down the posts and chains and terrorist preventing concrete. The way to win against terrorism is to go on unafraid, and absolutely not to take public, ugly, and useless preventative measures against further terrorism out of fear.

What makes you think such measures are useless? the measures taken at the Pentagon are credited with saving hundreds (if not thousands) of lives. Taking measures to protect targets against a threat is not done out of fear, it's done out of a desire to either prevent an attack or reduce its impact.

-Gumboot

 

[Travis]

It should be noted that there is a hill just to the west of the Pentagon that may have obscured it visually until Hani was almost right on top of it.

I've never been to the DC area, let alone flown over that area, so I don't know for sure.

 

[Sabrina]

At the height Hanjour was, that low hill probably wouldn't have had much of an effect on his view of the Pentagon. At the lower altitude, perhaps, but I rather doubt it would obscure much at 7,000 feet; it's pretty low as I recall. I'd be more interested to know if the nearby buildings (there are several high rises as well as some slightly lower level, yet still taller than the Pentagon buildings directly adjacent to it) obscured anything. I rather doubt it; Hanjour came in from the west, correct? Before beginning the turn? To the west of the Pentagon is mostly Arlington Cemetery; there's nothing there to obscure the view except the slight rise you mentioned, Travis.

It's interesting to note that the Air Force Memorial would now block the approach that Hanjour took in the final moments; it wouldn't have much stopping power on a plane flying that fast, but it's made of material strong enough that it might affect the trajectory, as I recall. I might be recalling incorrectly though; regardless, I have to wonder if the placement of the memorial was deliberate or not.