Was the American Revolution justified?

Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

Jon_in_london said:
Pfffssshh!!! So the British were responsible for the Napoleonic wars?!!?!

Did I say that?

They did start the French and Indian war, by having troops move into the forests and shoot on sight at French soldiers and any allied Indians. In fact, the one who fired the shot credited for starting the war was a young Major in the British Army by the name of George Washington...

Then lets get to the 'they'. At the time, the colonists were British so all of this 'they' stuff is nonsense since everybody was on the same side before the sooting started.

Total bull$#!7! There were most certainly two different sides: the Crown, which kept exploiting the colonies, and the colonies, who were tired of being exploited.

Basically, the gripe was about taxation, which the colonists didnt want to pay but was needed becasue the colonies needed to be defended. Even so, massive concessions were made- to the extent that the only tax being levied was on tea. TEA!. Funny how you all still pay taxes tho'...and on more than just tea.

Seems like you omitted two important words... "without representation." Taxation without representation.
 
shanek said:
Understand that it was the British government trying to conquer the land. All the settlers wanted to do was move in somewhere and live there; they did that by getting grants from the government for land which the government had already taken. They had no interest in raiding, or conquering, or obtaining more land.

Are you being serious?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

shanek said:


Did I say that?

They did start the French and Indian war, by having troops move into the forests and shoot on sight at French soldiers and any allied Indians.

Yes. Britian was at war with France. That means French soldiers are the enemy you dumbass!!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

shanek said:

Seems like you omitted two important words... "without representation." Taxation without representation.

And so they dropped all tax. Except on tea. You want to go to war over tea.
 
Hegel said:
Americans in justifying the Revolution usually bring up a wide range of "injuries" done by the British as just cause. But was it justified? They claim that the British soldiers were quartering in American homes. This can be countered by the fact that they were just finished fighting a WAR with the French and Indians to the west, and the border situation was quite hostile at that time. They also claim that the British were overtaxing the colonists. Again, acording to the British, the tax increase was to pay for protection from the French and Indians. One of the final major reasons that the Americans claim that the revolution was justified is that the British refused them representation in Parliement. While this was quite reprehensible, lets think about why the colonists came to the U.S. anyway. For religious reasons, (i.e. breaking the LAW of England against non-Anglicans, not exactly law-maker materials.) for judicial reasons (e.g. being sent as an indentured servant from the debtor prisons) or being poor or the youngest son of a noble. These were all reasons not to let them into Parliement which was reserved for the Lords in the House of Lords, and for the burger class of the towns in the House of Commons. Almost none of the people that came to the U.S. were inheriting nobles or powerful enough to be in the House of Commons, after all if they had been they would have stayed in England.

So do you have any other info that would be relevent to the debate? And do you think the American Revolution was justified?

I've actually done some work on this issue myself.

The conclusion that I have come to is yes and no.

Technically by the laws of the day, no, they were not justified. But, by the fact that they didn't like the laws of the day, sure, I guess that any revolution can be justified in that manner.

Here are all the claims:

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and
necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate
and pressing importance, unless suspended in their
operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so
suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of
large districts of people, unless those people would
relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature,
a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places
unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of
their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing
them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for
opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of
the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to
cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers,
incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at
large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean
time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without,
and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these
States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for
Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to
encourage their migrations hither, and raising the
conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by
refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary
powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the
tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of
their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither
swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their
substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies
without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and
superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction
foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our
laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended
Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for
any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of
these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by
Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended
offences

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a
neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary
government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it
at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the
same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable
Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our
Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring
themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all
cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of
his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our
towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign
Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and
tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty &
perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and
totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the
high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the
executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall
themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has
endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers,
the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare,
is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and
conditions.

Here is what I figured out. Yes, most of these claims are true, there were a few that I was not able to establish as true, but that does not mean that they were not true. However, as you point out some of them were justified, and many have two sides to the story. The ones that are the most suspect are the ones towards the end.

Here is what is true though:

The British Crown was losing money in their fights all around the world and it was very costly for them to maintain a force in the American colonies to defend them from the French and Indians. The main people being attacked were the people on the western frontier.

Because of this they imposed a tax, but that tax mainly affected the wealthy on the east coast. They didn't like this because they felt that they were paying for the protection of the frontiersmen, which they didn't want to do.

In the House of Commons they really could not understand the opposition to taxation because from their point of view the Crown had spent huge sums of money and resources helping to establish the colonies, and here, after all that and the continued cost of running the colonies these people didn't want to pay anything to help with the cost.

There are other issues too though.

#1 The British outlawed slavery in Europe in 1772.

There was significant dialog between the British and the colonists on this matter and the British were making it clear that they planned to outlaw slavery in the colonies as well. The Americans who wanted the revolution greatly opposed this. They claimed that it was an infringement on their freedom to not allow them to enslave people.

At the time of the revolution there was slavery in all 13 colonies, and in fact one of the highest concentrations of slaves was in New York.

With the onset of the Revolutionary War the British declared that they would free all blacks that rose up against their masters and fought for the Crown.

George Washington refused to allow blacks to fight in his army and pushed to keep the blacks under tight control.

Eventually, as the war was being lost, the colonies agreed to allow blacks to fight in their army as well and offered them freedom if they fought for their side. This, along with reinforcements from the French helped to turn the tide of the war. Unfortunately for the blacks things got even worse for them after the war was over.

#2 At the time of the war it was deemed the Tobacco Wars. The British had sever restrictions on Tobacco because the king felt it was unhealthy. He opposed Tobacco, and but the Americans were smuggling it into Britain against the law. In fact this was the single largest source of income for the Americans. Many of the American tobacco farmers had massive debts to the British which they refused to pay, even though they were making money.

The King was continuing to crack down on the tobacco smugglers and to take action against the colonists who were not paying their debts.

#3 Only about 1/3 of the colonists supported the revolution. over 60% of the colonists didn't support it. The people who did support it were largely wealthy slave owners. It was revolution instigated by the wealthy in opposition to taxation and the request for repayment of debt and opposition to slavery that the British were mounting.

So it was really a revolution to save wealth that had been acquired by illegal and unethical means, but which they did not want to have taken away.

This is what makes it different from most other revolutions, which are usually of the poor.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

shanek said:
There were most certainly two different sides: the Crown, which kept exploiting the colonies, and the colonies, who were tired of being exploited.
But both sides were British. From some of the statements made in this thread, one might get the impression that, pre-independence, America was under British occupation rather than being a British colony.

Seems like you omitted two important words... "without representation." Taxation without representation.
But the colonies had no less representation in Parliament than any county in Britain—which is to say, very little, as representation was based on class and interest rather than geographical area—so why should the Crown treat the colonies as a special case?
 
JAR[/i] [b]Nowadays said:

Nonsense! You're Americans. I thought that was the whole point, to get away from the petty prejudices of the past and start again. You know, all men being created and all...

Exactly! "American" is a distinct ethnicity, and one that is intended to supercede all other forms of ethnicity. The deal is that these things tend to be invisible because it's what you're used to. You only notice it when you're sensitised by differential treatment in response to your ethnicity.

Originally posted by JAR
Why fight for the existence of an ethnic group that's not recognized? People like me could fight for the existence of white people, but then we'd be called white supremacists.
Because white isn't an ethnicity? The only common cultural feature of "whiteness" is, well, being white, and even that's kind of subjective.
 
Hegel said:
Americans in justifying the Revolution usually bring up a wide range of "injuries" done by the British as just cause. But was it justified? They claim that the British soldiers were quartering in American homes. This can be countered by the fact that they were just finished fighting a WAR with the French and Indians to the west, and the border situation was quite hostile at that time. They also claim that the British were overtaxing the colonists. Again, acording to the British, the tax increase was to pay for protection from the French and Indians. One of the final major reasons that the Americans claim that the revolution was justified is that the British refused them representation in Parliement. While this was quite reprehensible, lets think about why the colonists came to the U.S. anyway. For religious reasons, (i.e. breaking the LAW of England against non-Anglicans, not exactly law-maker materials.) for judicial reasons (e.g. being sent as an indentured servant from the debtor prisons) or being poor or the youngest son of a noble. These were all reasons not to let them into Parliement which was reserved for the Lords in the House of Lords, and for the burger class of the towns in the House of Commons. Almost none of the people that came to the U.S. were inheriting nobles or powerful enough to be in the House of Commons, after all if they had been they would have stayed in England.

So do you have any other info that would be relevent to the debate? And do you think the American Revolution was justified?

Yes and no. A revolt against our lawful King was by definition "un-lawful". But consider the provocation. Imagine how much it would take for great men such as Franklin, Washington, and Jefferson to rebel openly against their King. With so much wealth to lose, their passion for the cause must have been heartfelt indeed! They pledged their "lives, wealth, and sacred honour" to the cause of American independence. They were without doubt traitors to the crown.

Kings are not in the habit of giving up power to the benefit of their people. The Magna Carta was forced upon the King at the point of a sword. Those Lords that forced their King to give up power would have been traitors too had they not held that sword.

The fact that American colonists had just reasons for the revolt is immaterial. Had they lost, our founding fathers would have hung. The history books would have regarded them as traitors and perhaps the Brits would even today celebrate the 4th of July like they do the 5th of November. Winning is all that really matters in war. It's how our entire world history has been shaped. We won. Therefore the American revolution was justified in the one way, that in the end, really matters.

-z
 
BillyTK said:


Because white isn't an ethnicity? The only common cultural feature of "whiteness" is, well, being white, and even that's kind of subjective.

Would you say that 'English' is an ethnicity? [/hijack]
 
Originally posted by fhios
We rebelled; and we built the first real democracy on Earth. Does someone have a problem with that?
Wow, now there's a spurious claim if ever I saw one! Exactly how was it the first real democracy. Women didn't have the vote, nor did the slaves, or the Indians who were of course the original natives of the land! It was no more a real democracy than ancient Greece, less so in fact because in Greece everyone who was elligible to vote could do so on all state business!
You don't even have a real democracy today, it's a representational republic, and since there are only two parties, both of which are sponsored by big business and special interest groups it can hardly even be described as particularly representational. Not that I'm saying that there are any systems that are any better, just that you should recognise your government for what it is, and your history for what it was, rather than idealising. One of the thing that pisses people off most about America is the oft used claim of Americans that it is the greatest country on Earth. It's certainly the richest and most influential, but that isn't the same thing.

Okay, I'm now bracing myself for the torrent of bile that I'm sure is coming my way! :D
 
wollery said:



Okay, I'm now bracing myself for the torrent of bile that I'm sure is coming my way! :D

:bricks:

Would you settle for torrent of bricks?? Sorry it's the best I could do! :D

:dr: ...please send us one :torrentofbile: smiley.

Thanks!
-z

OBTW: God Bless America! :usa:

:cool:
 
Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

rikzilla said:
Yes and no. A revolt against our lawful King was by definition "un-lawful". But consider the provocation. Imagine how much it would take for great men such as Franklin, Washington, and Jefferson to rebel openly against their King. With so much wealth to lose, their passion for the cause must have been heartfelt indeed! They pledged their "lives, wealth, and sacred honour" to the cause of American independence. They were without doubt traitors to the crown.

Kings are not in the habit of giving up power to the benefit of their people. The Magna Carta was forced upon the King at the point of a sword. Those Lords that forced their King to give up power would have been traitors too had they not held that sword.

The fact that American colonists had just reasons for the revolt is immaterial. Had they lost, our founding fathers would have hung. The history books would have regarded them as traitors and perhaps the Brits would even today celebrate the 4th of July like they do the 5th of November. Winning is all that really matters in war. It's how our entire world history has been shaped. We won. Therefore the American revolution was justified in the one way, that in the end, really matters.

-z
I couldn't have said it better myself.
 
wollery said:
You don't even have a real democracy today, it's a representational republic, and since there are only two parties, both of which are sponsored by big business and special interest groups it can hardly even be described as particularly representational.

...

One of the thing that pisses people off most about America is the oft used claim of Americans that it is the greatest country on Earth. It's certainly the richest and most influential, but that isn't the same thing.
That is fair. I think it is the greatest. Of course I haven't lived anywhere else. But then not many people are dying (literally) to go to other countries.

America is the land of opportunity. Yes, special interests have a lot of influence. Take environmental special interests, they lobby to enact laws every year that make it difficult for businesses to do as they please but protect the environment.

The ACLU using donations from individuals, corporations and others from across the nation use the courts to enforce civil rights.

Unions (some of the most powerful special interests in America) use the dues of their members to lobby on behalf of workers.

My Mother belongs to the AARP. A special interest that works to ensure the rights of senior citizens.

I belong to the NRA. The money I send them represents my voice and will. The NRA works in part on my behalf to protect my 2nd Amendment rights.

I don't know if it truly is the greatest nation on earth. I like it. I was born poor but had opportunity. I am 17 years into a 30 year mortgage. I will own my home someday. I am free to move and find the best schools for my children and enjoy many other freedoms.

To me it IS the greatest nation on earth. If that upsets you then too bad.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

BillyTK said:
Ends justify the means?
I just argued for pages with Shanek over this. Yes, there are times when the ends justify the means.

But this is NOT the point that I took from rickzillas post. It was a pragmatic one in which the winners of wars write the rules. That doesn't make it moral or ok. It just is.

As rick so eleoquently points out, had the revolution failed the founders would have swung from the end of a rope. They certainly felt that the ends (self rule) justified the means (revolution).

Edited to turn right into write. Though "right" the rules has a ring to it.
 
Jon_in_london said:


Would you say that 'English' is an ethnicity? [/hijack]
<hijack>
Sorry jon, no straightforward answer from me as I'd have to say both yes and no; the "english character" is something that has fascinated sociologists and ethnologists for years, but often it's based on the idea of being English as being middle class, male tea-drinker and cricket fan. So it's hard to come up with one idea of an English ethnicity which encompasses all regional and social variations. I guess to a large extent, ethnicity is only meaningful in contrasting a minority group with the majority host, even though when it comes down to it, we're all "mongrels".

Btw, "Irish" has been accepted as a classification on ethnic monioring forms. Oh joy is me! My ethnicity is recognised at last!
</hijack>
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

BillyTK said:


Ends justify the means? :eek:

You guys trot that out alot. Kneejerk-like.

You forget that sometimes the ends DO justify the means. That's why another trite expression says: "All's fair in love and war".

All that I was trying to say is that without military strength, all the good ideas of history,...the Magna Carta, rule of law, parlimentary representation, bill of rights,....would have never come to pass.

Many people on this forum belittle the soldier...but without him there would be no freedom from which protection you can safely spout off.

If you are at war, then the only thing that has real meaning to you is victory. In war victory is the ultimate justification. It's not the world as I would like it to be,....it's just a recognition of the world that is.

It is the real difference between Founding Father...and treacherous traitor.
-z

BTW: Thanks for the kind word RF ;)
 
I have to post to clarify a little about the history leading up to the American Revolution.

The "French and Indian Wars" began a century before the Napoleanic Wars, and included colonial wars between Britain and France including "King William's War," "Queen Anne's War," "King George's War" as well as what is now commonly referred to as the French and Indian War. These can all really be seen as one conflict punctuated by periods of armistice, and all corresponded with general outbreaks of war in Europe.

The French and Indian War began in 1755 after the British "Ohio Company" had protested to the French in 1754 about building a fort along the Ohio River. (Fort Duquesne, which is in the area that is now Pittsburgh.) The Governor of Virginia sent an expedition (composed of regular and colonial troops), to eject the French from the area after the French ignored the objection.

This fighting started just before the outbreak of the "Seven Years War" in Europe, which was about colonial rivalry and succession in the Hannover area of Germany, if I recollect.

In any event, to say that one side or another "started" the war is to over-simplify a complex geo-political situation.

(By the way, at the time of the American Revolution, my understanding is that the American Colonies enjoyed the lowest taxation rate in the British Empire.)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

Jon_in_london said:
Yes. Britian was at war with France. That means French soldiers are the enemy you dumbass!!

Okay, enlighten me: What war were they already having with France at the time the French and Indian War started?

And why was it not a problem for at least thirty years beforehand?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was the American Revolution justified?

BillyTK said:
But the colonies had no less representation in Parliament than any county in Britain—which is to say, very little, as representation was based on class and interest rather than geographical area—so why should the Crown treat the colonies as a special case?

Oh, very nice... they're justified in treating the colonists like crap because they were treating others like crap, too...
 

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