Was Neantderthal an artist?

[Bikewer]

I saw headlines this morning, and today's Science Friday is interviewing one of the researchers:
http://sciencefriday.com/playlist/#play/segment/8839

It's been assumed that the cave paintings at Lascaux and Chauvet are the product of modern humans, arriving in Europe around 40,000 years ago.
However, recent research has shown at least the possibility that the oldest of the paintings, the hand-outline images, may date to a time well before then.

Unable to date the actual pigments, researchers were able to date the calcium overlays that have accumulated (from dripping and splashing water) over the pigments. These show a date right around the time of the estimated arrival of modern humans.
Of course, the underlying painting may be much older than that, leading to the possibility that they were made by Neanderthal.
It's hardly a strong case, the only other evidence of artistry among the Neanderthal are some shell beads, some "carvings" on bones, and some shells containing pigment which may have been for body painting.
As one critic on this morning's NPR segment said, we have plenty of evidence for artistry among modern humans, and very little for Neanderthal.
Still, a possibility.

 

[Vortigern99]

It's possible, but no fossil or artifact evidence supports the hypothesis that Neanderthals painted the walls at El Castillo, or any prehistoric cave painting site.

The data simply is not there to support the contention... yet.

 

[ThunderChunky]

I would say they probably did have art because they aren't that different from modern humans.

I remember reading about a musical instrument..but whether it actually is an instrument made by neanderthals is controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divje_Babe_flute#Neanderthal_flute

 

[Halfcentaur]

I think if they had jewelry or decoration of any kind, they would probably have the capacity for painting or drawing. I think pareidolia is all you need, and a means to make marks.
But from what I understand there are even human tribes in South America for instance that could not make sense of drawings or markings using 2 dimensional representation.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

I wonder (I thinking Bower birds) if any other species other than homo sapien sapien utilized art. That begs the question of what exactly is the definition of art?

Charlie (Garfunkle) Monoxide

 

[pakeha]

I would say they probably did have art because they aren't that different from modern humans.

I remember reading about a musical instrument..but whether it actually is an instrument made by neanderthals is controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divje_Babe_flute#Neanderthal_flute

There's another early musical instrument in Stuttgart:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fe20050317mb.html

I heard music played on a reconstruction of that flute while in Stuttgart recently. Haunting.

 

[Jodie]

I wish they had a sound clip of it being played.

There is an interesting discussion in another thread about whether artistic ability is inherited or a learned skill. There is research out there that suggests that subtle differences in the structure of the brain may affect how much latent ability one might have inherited.

I can see how this might apply to Neandertal. They've taken a skull and tried to figure out if the Neandertal's brain was similar to HS's brain. There are some differences, I just don't know if enough research in neuroscience exists that could definitively say how that might determine how Neandertal would see the world.

http://www.livescience.com/17441-neanderthal-brains-modern-humans.html

 

[pakeha]

Sooner or later the sound clip of that flute's tones will find its way to youtube.

Where's the thread discussing whether

...artistic ability is inherited or a learned skill...

?

 

[gabeygoat]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237569

 

[pakeha]

Thanks, gabeygoat!

 

[naisel]

I wish they had a sound clip of it being played.

I can't post the link, but just search "Klangwelten der Altsteinzeit" on google and open the first link.

If you pass the mouse over "Flotenklang" you can hear a sample.

 

[Ixion]

I can't post the link, but just search "Klangwelten der Altsteinzeit" on google and open the first link.

If you pass the mouse over "Flotenklang" you can hear a sample.

Or this link:

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041213/multimedia/041213-14-m1.html

 

[Jodie]

Thanks both of you! That was different.

 

[Marduk]

I can see how this might apply to Neandertal. They've taken a skull and tried to figure out if the Neandertal's brain was similar to HS's brain. There are some differences, I just don't know if enough research in neuroscience exists that could definitively say how that might determine how Neandertal would see the world.

you must have missed the news that Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthalis are sub species of each other, this became apparent when Neanderthal DNA was discovered in many human groups outside Africa. So they can't have been very different at all. Because we interbred
You in fact Jodie, unless you're an African, had Neanderthal ancestors which of course means that you are also part Neanderthal

 

[Jodie]

you must have missed the news that Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthalis are sub species of each other, this became apparent when Neanderthal DNA was discovered in many human groups outside Africa. So they can't have been very different at all. Because we interbred
You in fact Jodie, unless you're an African, had Neanderthal ancestors which of course means that you are also part Neanderthal

Nope, didn't miss a thing, you will find some variation in skull shape and size among HS. I do believe the Australian aborigines have a slight difference in their brain structure that allows them to have better visual acuity than the rest of us world wide. And skull thickness will vary depending on ethnicity and sex.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3654333

At most, we only have 2-4% of the nuclear neandertal genome. I'm sure I have the full 4% since my ancestors came from that part of the world. As a matter of fact, I actually look like a neandertal and could probably blend right in if they were still alive today.

However, it looks like we were dissimilar enough for it to create some issues with reproduction in that transmission only occurred one way: female human/male neandertal combination which is why there isn't any neandertal mtDNA present in our lineage.

All we have are the five neandertal skulls to evaluate, the assumption is that the interior skull shape gives some indication of the shape of the brain because that is the case with HS.There is enough variation in brain structure among HS to establish a link with artistic and musical ability. There is no way to know if this would hold true for neandertal as well.

 

[Bikewer]

In the Werner Herzog documentary "Cave Of Dreams", one of the researchers plays a bit on a replica of one of the bone flutes...
He says it's what we would recognize as a pentatonic scale.

So our ancestors were bluesmen....

 

[Brown]

Was Neanderthal an artist? I personally know some artists who are Neanderthals.