The thing with Jesus was that, if he existed, he was loved by everyone and he loved everyone, but still that doesn't mean he wasn't an idiot.
It's like today's new age gurus. Yes, everybody enjoys their achievements and they're very nice and take care of ill people and have lots of fans and follwors who bow on their knews before them...but they're still stupid.
The bible is so contradictory.
He's super powerful and likes you, so everything you don't agree with will have to be his mysterious ways.
His love directly affects you but when he hates you...oh....it's just this very mysterious and humanly incomprehensible kind of love.
It's a like a husband beating his wife.
Religion, New Age Beliefs and Conspiracy theories are by nature, contradictory and immune to critical scrutiny which leads to either paranoia, martyrdom or thickheadeness.
If Jesus existed and he is a "higher being" then he is indeed an Idiot for his liberal views about: "Love everyone". The problem I have is that todays Christians swept this image of Jesus under the carpet whenever they don't agree with him. That's no belief at all, it's simply dodging out of comfort.
And your statement about the contradictions within the Bible proves that the Bible is a bunch of crappy statements made by humans. There is no way to think about the Bible as the words of a Supreme Being - unless you think that this so called God/Jesus are schizophrenic Idiots.
Do you base your imaginings on your own independent thoughts, or on what the bible says,ie someone else's imaginings?
I base my conclusion on the 10 Commandments - and I personally see no way to ignore them just because other verses in the Bible give contradictiously explanations.
So the 10 Commandments should be the highest standard - above everything else written in the Bible.
Well, the first part is that, because Jesus was so good and had powers and consequently everything he said became a sort of authoritative statement of unshakable truth about reality, people perceived him as such, any statement coming from him that they didn't agree with, it would only have one explanation: " *shrug* it must be his mysterious, incomprehensible wisdom only obtainable in the glorious, Heaven the house of the Lord our God."
Jesus is only good, he cannot be bad. If he shows you he loves you...like giving you advice and hugging you and playing with your children and the sheep and cloning loafs of bread for the ex-blind poor people, then sure he's a lovely individual.
If he believes gays should be stoned and throws pigs into a precipice and sees women as inferior and calls people names, it must also be love, but a humanly incomprehensible kind of love.
The religious fundamentalists twist and break everything so it fits their already dogmatic views of who Jesus Christ was.
That's what I was trying to say...
And those who say that Jesus wasn't perfect...then why call him divine? Because he said so, after spending his childhood and teenage years in mosks and in places where people only talked about the messiah?
I fully agree with you: Why calling an imperfect guy as being perfect if it isn't true?
Jesus to me is someone who is opposed to violence in any form. And the 10 Commandments confirm this thinking. So how are fundies able to ignore these "biblical facts" whenever it fits their personal agendas?
I think this is a somewhat valid issue Oliver is raising: Jesus was clearly very liberal. So, why are his most ardent followers so dang conservative?
I think the answer is that most of his ardent followers are not really interested in following Jesus, but rather their own ideological ideals; and they choose to twist Jesus into their God-of-Choice, more out their cultural heritage, than anything else.
If there was no concept of Jesus, I think fundies would still behave essentially the same way. They would merely tack their ideals onto something else, either another Biblical figure, or some other character that could have been invented (even if that character was also supposed to be liberal).
It is similar to the reason Al Queda claims they are Islamic Fundamentalists, but most Christians clearly do not take it to the same hideous extreme.
The real fundamentals of Islam are quite different from what terrorists claim. They are merely latching their ideologies onto a framework they adopted through their heritage.
One piece of evidence we have to support my claim, is in the form of Unitarian Universalism. Many of their congregations study the philosophies of Jesus, but do not believe he was really the son of God or anything else of divine nature. As a result, most of them are quite liberal.
Quite frankly - personally I see no difference between Al Qaida and Christian Beliefs. The reason for that is that Christian Fundies are not living in a world in which Muslims are "casting the stones around" in their homelands. But if this would be the case, I have no doubt that they would act in a similar extreme way to justify their actions based on the Bible.
Jesus and the 10 C's are liberal. Everything else is a lie.
What makes you say that Jesus was very liberal?
His image portrayed in the Bible. Someone who is filled with love - who forgives the ones who don't share his views, someone who believes in the 10 Commandments and someone who shares love with people who don't care about his beliefs.
Are there specific Bible verses that lead you to these conclusions? Actually, I think conclusions might be too strong a word. That lead you to these speculations?
My religious lessons were 20 years ago - so I cannot point out specific verses I've read a long time ago. However, I never read anything about Jesus telling that isn't liberal from his POV.
Ah, but can we conclude that He was antidisestablishmentarian?
[you did ask for it]
It depends on what you think "antidisestablishmentarian" is. So why do you think he thought this way?
Oliver, are you really intending to make a blanket statement against a whole, not-really-all-that-homogenous society like this?
Are you implying that, say, Germans don't contradict themselves regarding this issue? Are there no groups in Germany that make use of religion, especially versions of Christian religion, to promote conservative issues?
What about Italy? There's this guy there...what's his name? Benedict something or other. Wears a funny hat. Does he not promote the same contradictions you mention in your OP?
Why does everything have to work off of the assumption that us Americans are just such horrible, horrible people?
I think German Fundies have the same kind of doubts and comfortable misinterpretations. The difference is that religion and politics are much more separated than in the US. So fundies don't have a chance to put their feet into the "political door" like in case of the "Christian right", for example.
Are you yet another one that weasels away the horrors of the OT by taking dishonest refuge in the NT.
So I have to repeat a post:
To just use NT only, one must be either a liar or a compulsive bible-cherry-picker to fit whatever one happens to think.
The 10 commandments (whichever you pick) are not in the New Testament.
In the New Testament, Abraham is referred to 68 times, the ancient Israelites are mentioned 73 times, Jacob 26 times, Issac 20 times, Elijah 29 times, Isiah 22 times, Noah 8 times, King David is mentioned 58 times. The name Moses appears 80 times!
Also, Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I come not to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17. Therefore, Jesus came to fulfil Old Testament Law.
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18. The Old testament laws are binding on everyone, forever.
"If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45. This says it all.
So, are your beliefs based only on the New Testament?
Would that be the bits that don't contain reference to Jesus, commandments, law, Abraham, Israelites, Jacob, Isaac, Isiah, Noah, King David or Moses?
There's not a lot left.
Wonder no more. The bible has the answer. Jesus is not nice.
He said:
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."
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I didn't now the phrase you quoted about "killing in front of me". But it's just another example of the Bible being a pile of crap.
How can people believe in such stupid contradictions don't even recognizing them?
I think you'll find you have to have it both ways, you can't take the son and leave the father when they're THE SAME GUY. And you're right, Jesus' teaching do conflict with many of Yahweh's earlier commands, but that's probably because he wasn't actually the messiah.
So, who was he? If he isn't the "Messiah" nor does agree with the "Messiah's" wisdom, who is he anyway?
