Was Jesus such an idiot?

kmortis said:
Although, he wasn't totally anti-establishmentarian. That whole "give unto Cesear what is Cesear" bit throws that in the dustbin.
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Ah, but can we conclude that He was antidisestablishmentarian?

[you did ask for it]
 
Oliver said:
PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.
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Oliver, are you really intending to make a blanket statement against a whole, not-really-all-that-homogenous society like this?

Are you implying that, say, Germans don't contradict themselves regarding this issue? Are there no groups in Germany that make use of religion, especially versions of Christian religion, to promote conservative issues?

What about Italy? There's this guy there...what's his name? Benedict something or other. Wears a funny hat. Does he not promote the same contradictions you mention in your OP?

Why does everything have to work off of the assumption that us Americans are just such horrible, horrible people?
 
Oliver said:
PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.
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Total crap. It's just another thread for you to claim to want to understand Americans while completely ignoring the responses you get.

If you're a Christian, Oliver, I strongly suggest you think seriously about the "mote in the eye" parable.
 
Wowbagger said:
I think this is a somewhat valid issue Oliver is raising: Jesus was clearly very liberal. So, why are his most ardent followers so dang conservative?

I think the answer is that most of his ardent followers are not really interested in following Jesus, but rather their own ideological ideals; and they choose to twist Jesus into their God-of-Choice, more out their cultural heritage, than anything else.
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Marvellous post!

I often mention to christians that Jesus love for truth and respect and hatred of avarice would have him sending many so-called "pastors" on the Highway to Hell. (But without Richie Blackmore!)

Oliver said:
PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.
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Given that Americans who contradict themselves regarding Jesus' philosophies are generally fundie christians, maybe you'd be better off asking this question at a fundy christian site?

In case you hadn't noticed, there aren't many of them here and once KK and Amy Wilson have posted, you've done your dash, mate.

Wowbagger said:
Jesus does not come off as a typical absolutist ideologist. He had ideals, but didn't push them as if he had any impunity.
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Well, I'm not sure I can agree with this quite as much. He did tell people that if they didn't obey the commandments and honour his old man, god, they were going to the hot place. The carrot of everlasting life was on the other side, so on those two promises, we could have him for both fraud (heaven) and extortion (hell).

I like what Jesus says about morality and his [our] fellow man, but when the bloke starts carping on about atheists being sent to hell for merely disbelieving in his old man, no matter how pious they be, I think it's time to go for the pinch of salt.

Wowbagger said:
(*my own "study" of it was mostly speed-reading.)
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I don't blame you, it's an awful book. If I were the pope, I'd be going for a re-write.

Zep said:
And he was Jewish. Don't forget that!
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My favourite! I can think of blokes at Stormfront who'd actually do you physical harm for saying that; they are stark, raving nutters and will not even begin to allow the hint of speculation to be shown that Jesus was not Jewish. They're right anyway, how could he be Jewish? He was God-ish!

(No Jewish semen were harmed during this production.)
 
Am I missing something here? Why is everyone talking as if Jesus actually existed? I was baptised and brought up a Catholic, but from what I have read I do not see convincing evidence for his actual existence. I know some will say that it is the idea of Jesus that is important, but so much is invested in the cult of his personality, his divinity etc that his non-existence would be a mortal blow to christanity. Come on, this is a skeptical forum. Where is the proff of Jesus?
 
The Atheist said:
I often mention to christians that Jesus love for truth and respect and hatred of avarice would have him sending many so-called "pastors" on the Highway to Hell. (But without Richie Blackmore!)
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[nitpick] Psssst....... Ritchie Blackmore was the guitar player of Deep Purple. The song “Highway to Hell” is of AC/DC, you know, that brilliant Australian Hardrock Combo. The guitar players of AC/DC are Angus and Malcolm Young, their former singer who went on the “Highway” after choking (he was vomiting after a few drinks too many) was Bon Scott. [\nitpick]

And I agree with lionking that the whole question is moot as long as nobody proves that J-man even existed. I´m a friend of fantasy writings myself but do not see much sense in discussing the moral values of Gandalf and the lot either, except as an exercise in mental masturbation. Oh, that´s what a lot of this forum is about? Never mind........
 
Oliver said:
Now I know that some people love to switch to the good ol testament to find the fitting explanation, but unfortunately you can't have it both ways: "Either you're with Jesus - or you're with the terrorists", wrong?
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Are you yet another one that weasels away the horrors of the OT by taking dishonest refuge in the NT.

So I have to repeat a post:

To just use NT only, one must be either a liar or a compulsive bible-cherry-picker to fit whatever one happens to think.

The 10 commandments (whichever you pick) are not in the New Testament.

In the New Testament, Abraham is referred to 68 times, the ancient Israelites are mentioned 73 times, Jacob 26 times, Issac 20 times, Elijah 29 times, Isiah 22 times, Noah 8 times, King David is mentioned 58 times. The name Moses appears 80 times!

Also, Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I come not to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17. Therefore, Jesus came to fulfil Old Testament Law.

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18. The Old testament laws are binding on everyone, forever.

"If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45. This says it all.

So, are your beliefs based only on the New Testament?

Would that be the bits that don't contain reference to Jesus, commandments, law, Abraham, Israelites, Jacob, Isaac, Isiah, Noah, King David or Moses?

There's not a lot left.

Oliver said:
I wonder why the Christian fundies are okay with these Issues and believing in a pretty liberal Jesus at the same time because I can't imagine that Jesus would:

- Deny free choice if the child may be physically and/or mental retarded
- Deny free Sex if the people involved love each other
- Deny Gay Marriage if the people love each other
- Oppress Religions just because they have Fundies, too.
- Accept war for allegedly higher reasons
- Accept the death of one of his sheep ignoring the issue of forgiveness
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Wonder no more. The bible has the answer. Jesus is not nice.

He said:
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

.
 
Georg said:
[nitpick] Psssst....... Ritchie Blackmore was the guitar player of Deep Purple. The song “Highway to Hell” is of AC/DC, you know, that brilliant Australian Hardrock Combo. The guitar players of AC/DC are Angus and Malcolm Young, their former singer who went on the “Highway” after choking (he was vomiting after a few drinks too many) was Bon Scott. [\nitpick]

And I agree with lionking that the whole question is moot as long as nobody proves that J-man even existed. I´m a friend of fantasy writings myself but do not see much sense in discussing the moral values of Gandalf and the lot either, except as an exercise in mental masturbation. Oh, that´s what a lot of this forum is about? Never mind........
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I missed that Georg and I'm an Aussie and all! And AC/DC is about as satanic as your average Methodist minister (well maybe that's opening a whole new can of worms.....)
 
ned flandas said:
:confused: :confused:

please explain
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I could. I've had both, and at the same time. Anecdotally, I can attest that they are truly the same kind of "love." It's why I'm an atheist now.

Unfortunately, you'd have to live a life similar to mine to understand. And, lucky you, you'll never have to.
 
Oliver said:
Now I know that some people love to switch to the good ol testament to find the fitting explanation, but unfortunately you can't have it both ways: "Either you're with Jesus - or you're with the terrorists", wrong?
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I think you'll find you have to have it both ways, you can't take the son and leave the father when they're THE SAME GUY. And you're right, Jesus' teaching do conflict with many of Yahweh's earlier commands, but that's probably because he wasn't actually the messiah.
 
Georg said:
[nitpick] Psssst....... Ritchie Blackmore was the guitar player of Deep Purple.
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I am lmfao!

Shocking cock-up - I know all that and have done for a century or two. I have almost all of AC/DC's albums and three Deep Purple.

See what happens when you don't concentrate on every bit of a post? I would definitely have got Blackmore's Ritchie wrong, but I'll take the Fith on that, because we have a famous sportsman here Richie Blackmore, so the name probably looked right.

What an idiot! AC/DC totally ripped off Deep Purple!
 
I wonder why many Christians have no problems with violence and oppression if this happens in the name of the Bible.
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Who says they have no problems with these things?
 
Georg said:
except as an exercise in mental masturbation.
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Well actual masturbation is a no-no according to the bible so mental masturbation is probably the best you can hope for in this thread.
 
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Tricky said:
Against the established order? Check.
Against government establishment of religion? Check.
Free love? Check
Share the wealth? Check
Against capital punishment? Check
Letting women join traditionally men's groups? Check
Anti-violence? Check
Kissing guys? Check
Long hair and sandals? Check.
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So...

He was a hippie?;)
 
The Atheist said:
I don't blame you, it's an awful book. If I were the pope, I'd be going for a re-write.
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I dunno, it's got violence, bloodletting, genocide, incest, ethnic cleansing, apocalyptic preachers, prophecy, more violence, romance, regicide, crappy poetry, a big flood and an escape from slavery.

What more could you want in a book?
 
lionking said:
Am I missing something here? Why is everyone talking as if Jesus actually existed? I was baptised and brought up a Catholic, but from what I have read I do not see convincing evidence for his actual existence. I know some will say that it is the idea of Jesus that is important, but so much is invested in the cult of his personality, his divinity etc that his non-existence would be a mortal blow to christanity. Come on, this is a skeptical forum. Where is the proff of Jesus?
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I can think of many different ways to answer this.

Do you accept that Thermistocles the Athenian existed? (there is a point to this question)
 
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