Merged Was Hani Hanjour really inexperienced?

Capt. Russ Wittenberg

"I flew the two actual aircraft which were involved in 9/11; the Fight number 175 and Flight 93, the 757 that allegedly went down in Shanksville and Flight 175 is the aircraft that's alleged to have hit the South Tower. I don't believe it's possible for, like I said, for a terrorist, a so-called terrorist to train on a [Cessna] 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots,
He exceeded Vmo, not the 'design limit'. The design limit is, IIRC 0.95 mach Beachnut might correct me on that if I am not.
make high-speed high-banked turns, exceeding -- pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's.And the aircraft would literally fall out of the sky. I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it."
The math on the turn into the Pentagon indicates that the plane never had more than 1 g lateral and 2 g vertical (including the 1 g from gravity itself) This is the math that Newton came up with and I believe it before Wittenberg

Capt. Daniel Davis: "Finally, going over the hill and highway and crashing into the Pentagon right at the wall/ground interface is nearly impossible for even a small slow single engine airplane and no way for a 757. Maybe the best pilot in the world could accomplish that but not these unskilled "terrorists".

Logical fallacy sometimes known as the "Texas Sharpshooter" in which the arguement is that the result was exactly what had been intended. What intel does Davis have that it was wall/ground interface that Hanjour was specifically targeting?


"Commander Muga: The maneuver at the Pentagon was just a tight spiral coming down out of 7,000 feet.
Again the math shows that it was not in fact a tight turn
And a commercial aircraft, while they can in fact structurally somewhat handle that maneuver, they are very, very, very difficult. And it would take considerable training.
Which he says after his first, incorrect statement.
In other words, commercial aircraft are designed for a particular purpose and that is for comfort and for passengers and it's not for military maneuvers.
It in no way was a 'military manouver, it was a 33 fps desent and a 3 minute turn
And while they are structurally capable of doing them, it takes some very, very talented pilots to do that. ...
Which he says after another incorrect statement.
I just can't imagine an amateur even being able to come close to performing a maneuver of that nature."
Since the manouver he describes is not characteristic of the manouver performed his final statement is hardly one of authority.
 
But you haven't answered mine. I don't know of any pilot who claims that Hanjour's skills, in the intervening months before 9/11, was anything but substandard. Do you? Yes or no?
Blow. My. Mind.

We aren't talking about the opinions of pilots. We are talking about what would falsify your beliefs. Let me get you on the right track.

I believe that Hanjour was an experienced pilot because of his documented flying hours, he held a commercial pilot's license, and had that license verified in the time between it was issued and SEP 11, 2001. To falsify those beliefs, you would have to explain thoroughly that each of those things were false. You wouldn't have to create an imaginary quotation by an imaginary person that has no name.

I hope this helps you understand the concept of falsifiability. It's an important one in determining whether your beliefs are valid or not.
 
1. If you won't accept his instructor's assessment, then who's assessment would you accept?

How many times do you have to be told that this is irrelevent? He had sufficient familiarity with flight controls to have obtained a license and above that it only requires desire to accomplish crashing an aircraft into the largest office building in the world.

2. His skill levels are certainly relevant if the quotes I cited are correct: that only a highly skilled pilot could accomplish the 77-dive.

Addressed in my post above and I would be very, very suprised if everything I stated had not already been posted in this very thread, and read by you. That is, if we are to believe your protestations that you do indeed read the posts in this thread.
 
If ~A is true, and if the 77-dive could only be performed by a highly skilled pilot, then it follows that Hanjour did not fly 77 into the Pentagon.
Two things:

1) Diving an aircraft is in itself not hard. Just point the nose down and away you go. If you want to avoid building up too much speed in the dive decrease the throttle settings.

2) The aircraft did not actually dive into the Pentagon. If it had, then it would have hit the roof of the building. It didn't do that. It dived, pulled out, and then flew into the building nearly horizontal. Had the aircraft actually dived into the Pentagon, that would have required some very good piloting skill. For reference, look up the difference between dive bombing and glide bombing during WWII.
 
If you are an expert, then Radical Logic (lol) won't be able to see your post.
Oh, no. I don't claim to be an expert. I've never flown heavies, for example.
I'm just saying that flight track is consistent with what I've seen pilots do the first few times they need to fly high bank turns to stay in a thermal.

I don't see any incredible skill being demonstrated. Now, Patty Wagstaff, flying 360 degree turns while continuously rolling -- that's impressive. A sloppy descending turn, not so much.
 
I find it hysterical that Conspiracy Theorists think there was anything difficult about what the hijackers did on 9/11.

I find it alarming that some apparently genuine pilots think they themselves could not perform such maneuvers. I hope none of them ever pilots and aircraft I am on, as I feel confident saying I am a better pilot than them. Beachnut, I'll get on board a bird with you at the wheel any day. :cool:
 
My e-mail to Mark Roberts below.



Dear Mark,
Griffin's newest book, 9/11 Contradictions, arrived a few days ago (Sept.11, to be exact!), and I read through most of it. One chapter I found interesting was the one about Hani Hanjour, in which Griffin attempts to detail a contradiction in the official account of Flight 77. The contradiction is as follows:

(i) Only a highly skilled pilot could have flown AA77 into the Pentagon the way it allegedly did.
(ii) Hani Hanjour, the pilot who allegedly flew AA77 into the Pentagon, was a terrible pilot.

Clearly, (i) and (ii) both cannot be true, so we have a prima facie problem.

(ii) is supported by quotes like the following:

-----------------------------------
A. "Freeway Airport evaluated suspected hijacker Hani Hanjour when he attempted to rent a plane. He took three flights with the instructors in the second week of August, but flew so poorly he was rejected for the rental, said Marcel Bernard, chief flight instructor at Freeway. "

B. "Marcel Bernard, the airport manager and chief flight instructor, told FBI agents investigating last week's suicide attacks that one of their suspects in case, Hani Hanjour, had flown with flight instructors on three occasions over the last six weeks…'His flying skills were so poor overall that [instructors] declined to rent a plane to him without future training,' Bernard said of Hanjour."

C. "Mr. Hanjour, who investigators contend piloted the airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, was reported to the aviation agency in February 2001 after instructors at his flight school in Phoenix had found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot's license was genuine."

D. "[Managers] reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license…
'I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had,' said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix"

(If you'd like a link to any of these quotes I can provide them).
----------------------------------------


Hence, it seems, the most accurate assessment of Hanjour's piloting abilities before 9/11 is that they were poor. I haven't found any sources which contradict (ii).

(i), on the other hand, is supported by these quotes below (again, I can provide the links to any of them):

-----------------------------------
E. "[J]ust as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west…Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm"

F. "Whoever flew at least three of the death planes seemed very skilled. Investigators are impressed that they were schooled enough to turn off flight transponders -- which provide tower control with flight ID, altitude and location. Investigators are particularly impressed with the pilot who slammed into the Pentagon and, just before impact, performed a tightly banked 270-degree turn at low altitude with almost military precision."

G. "The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it's clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed."

H. "The maneuver at the Pentagon was just a tight spiral coming down out of 7,000 feet. And a commercial aircraft, while they can in fact structurally somewhat handle that maneuver, they are very, very, very difficult. And it would take considerable training… And while they are structurally capable of doing them, it takes some very, very talented pilots to do that."
-----------------------------

There are more, but I think the point is clear: according to the relevant experts, only a highly skilled pilot could have flown AA77 into the Pentagon the way it allegedly did.

Now, I have found statements of a few experts who deny (i) and claim that the AA77 maneuver was in fact easy. There are, however, two things to note about this. First, those experts seem to be in the minority (which, of course, doesn't mean they're wrong). Second, and more importantly, there hasn't been any real interaction or debate between the experts who affirm (i) and those who deny it.

Hence, there seems to be an unresolved contradiction here. Isn't, then, the claim that Hanjour flew 77 into the Pentagon at least questionable on reasonable grounds? Perhaps the official story will ultimately win the day, but it looks to me like we have mystery.

regards,
Spencer
 
You have been schooled on how Bernard has no problem with Hanjour hitting the Pentagon. Real pilots here have explained to you how Hanjour did absolutely nothing extraordinary in his maneuvering. Why do you continue down this path?
 
Hence, it seems, the most accurate assessment of Hanjour's piloting abilities before 9/11 is that they were poor. I haven't found any sources which contradict (ii).

Sure you have. And you've posted them here. They are the images of his commercial pilot's license.

And one of your quotations contains a factual error. The turn was closer to 330 degrees than it was to 270 degrees. When you use quotes, you should try to find ones that support your contention rather than distract from it.
 
It appears that claiming the 'hijackers didn't have good enough flying skills to pull 911 off' is possibly one of the stupidest arguments that the truther's have ever put forth.

But, then I look back at all the stupid 911 theories, and I think maybe it's just another equally stupid theory amongst a crapload of other similarly stupid theories.
 
(i) Only a highly skilled pilot could have flown AA77 into the Pentagon the way it allegedly did.
(ii) Hani Hanjour, the pilot who allegedly flew AA77 into the Pentagon, was a terrible pilot.


(i) is false, thus making (ii) irrelevant.
 
Anyone curious to see his response and my follow-up?

Not really. Seeing as this is an issue that has been discussed on this forum to death for many years we all already know all of the answers form everyone. The only one who does not is you because this is your first time. Mark is no longer here because he does not see the point in repeating the same information over and over. We already know his response.
 
I was away for a couple of days, and this train wreck ran to another six pages that I suspect I won't learn anything by reading. I just have two questions:

(1) Has Radical Logic advanced anything beyond his original false dilemma fallacy?
(2) Has anyone re-posted the bank angle data from the Flight 77 FDR that shows that, whatever someone watching from a radar screen may have thought about "military precision", Hanjour's turn was actually the extremely wobbly effort one would expect from a poor pilot flying at the limit of his ability? And if it was Beachnut, has anyone quoted it so RL can see it?

Dave
 
Also, if we are to take your claim seriously, then we must take seriously the claim that he could have hit the white house simply with the "aim-and-hit" technique despite the fact that it is guarded by anti-aircraft missiles.
Wow. I didn't see anybody address this gem of a lie. So, RL cherry picks quote from "experts" that base their claims on invalid data like the "270 degree turn" as "fact." He then goes on to post the Pentagon anti-aircraft missile battery lie. RL, you're only embarrassing yourself here.
 

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