!!WARNING!! You are fat!

[RandFan]

Would this be a bad time to mention that my wife has lost 45 lbs on LA Weightloss?


Anyway, I dunno, RF. I do know a family of folks who are all obese, and can't really do anything about it. Been through the tests, and the docs are pretty sure it's a genetic abnormality that causes the body to process foods differently. There's a long name for it, but damned if I remember it now, 10 years later.

The oldest daughter ate salad and watched her diet to no end. It simply didn't help. I know she was miserable doing it. But it was almost a compulsion with her. The younger sibling, a son, decided to eat what he would, as it didn't make a difference anyway and tried to be as happy as he could being fat.

Which one came out ahead?

And, if it isn't too personal, if it is, just tell me to f k off, how much weight are we talking here? 50 lbs, 500lbs? If you ask me those weight charts are way off. At 6'7", they want me to weigh 215lbs. I'd look like a bean pole! I know I'm probably overweight at 300, and I could stand to lose a little gut, but I'm not unhealthy, really. I seriously doubt I'm going to lose 85lbs, though. It would be torturous to try. I could probably drop 50 comfortably.

(When I get around to it.... )

I'll answer any question you ask as honestly as I can. I'm over 400 pounds. I don't know exactly how much.

 

[Bjorn]

I don't understand your point? I'm trying to get medical help for a serious condition. I don't want to be fat and I don't want to die young.

I understand. Here's what you say:

I would say that when I alter my life significantly by changing my lifestyle be it a reduction in calories or an increase in physical activity or a combination of both I don't feel normal. I don't sleep and I'm very irritable.

Thing is, the moment I stop doing whatever it is that I'm doing to lose weight I have a tremendous feeling of well being.

If an alcoholic said the same, I would say that he has two choices: Accept that altering life significantly is necessary, or go for the feeling of well being.

I don't get your kind of thinking. Addicts and alcoholics should just give up?

No. Not if they want to stop being addicts or alcoholics. But there will be pain and depressions along the way, and they will have to decide if it's worth it - or agree with Merko that "If you're happy for a while and then you die, then surely it's better than being unhappy for a longer while and then die?"

 

[RandFan]

If an alcoholic said the same, I would say that he has two choices: Accept that altering life significantly is necessary, or go for the feeling of well being.

?

There is evidence that alcoholics can be effectively treated. I think you are excluding the middle.

No. Not if they want to stop being addicts or alcoholics. But there will be pain and depressions along the way, and they will have to decide if it's worth it - or agree with Merko that "If you're happy for a while and then you die, then surely it's better than being unhappy for a longer while and then die?"

I don't agree at all. They might seek treatment from licensed professionals who can help them. It is possible. There are treatments and more are on their way. The problems are real and physiological. Science can to a degree treat them. I just don't get this anti-science and and anti-medicine thinking. That one must accept ones condition or tough it out with conventional therapy that has proven time and again to not work for a percentage of the population. Perhaps you could consider that there are other possibilities. Perhaps it's not the dichotomy you think it is?

 

[ChristineR]

It's not the same as alcoholism at all. Going without booze will at worst give you a few weeks of DTs. Going without food will kill you. We all know the painful side effects of food deprivation, and we haven't established either that RandFan is a serious overeater, nor that RandFan is eating more than is needed to fend off the symptoms of malnourishment.

Based on what he says, I'd say he was undernourished. Yes, you can be undernourished and obese. Partly it's social, partly it's his biology, partly it's his past history, partly it's his lifestyle.

It's possible that weight loss would actually be a net negative to his health, or that a healthy weight loss would involve so much time, discipline, special foods, drugs, vitamin, and consults with dietitians and trainers that he'd have to win the lottery and quit his job. No, I can't tell this over the Internet. I'm just speculating.

 

[Smart_Cookie]

My two cents:

For myself, I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm a sugar junkie, and that sugar definitely IS an addictive substance.

When I cut out sugar, I can stick to a more balanced eating plan. Once I start eating sugar, I find that I want more and more. I'm not happy with one cookie or chocolate once in a while. I want sweets all day. I lose my ability to say "no thanks".

I was on Weight Watchers this year from May to August. Lost almost 10 pounds. For my birthday, I wanted cake and ice cream. I have yet to go back to the healthy eating.

 

[Bjorn]

?

There is evidence that alcoholics can be effectively treated.

This might be true, although I would like to see that evidence - and certainly, any alcoholic, even "effectively treated", would have to alter his life significantly?

I don't agree at all.

Don't agree on what? That "there will be pain and depressions along the way, and they will have to decide if it's worth it" - or that "if you're happy for a while and then you die, then surely it's better than being unhappy for a longer while and then die"?

They might seek treatment from licensed professionals who can help them. It is possible. There are treatments and more are on their way. The problems are real and physiological. Science can to a degree treat them. I just don't get this anti-science and and anti-medicine thinking. That one must accept ones condition or tough it out with conventional therapy that has proven time and again to not work for a percentage of the population.

By all means, go for whatever medications/treatments that are available. However, to a certain degree I think "tough it out" is one of the things addicts have to do.

Perhaps you should consider that there are other possibilities. Perhaps it's not the dichotomy you think it is?

Perhaps not. However, I thought you introduced that dichotomy when you said:

I would say that when I alter my life significantly by changing my lifestyle be it a reduction in calories or an increase in physical activity or a combination of both I don't feel normal. I don't sleep and I'm very irritable. Life becomes laborious and I start to get a feeling of dread. The longer I do whatever it is that is helping me lose weight the more unhappy and depressed I become. I hate to wake up in the morning and I have thoughts of suicide. It's like losing a loved one. Thing is, the moment I stop doing whatever it is that I'm doing to lose weight I have a tremendous feeling of well being.

You feel suicidal when you alter your lifestyle, you feel well when you stop doing it.

Aren't you looking for a way to change your lifestyle and eat less/exercise more without feeling suicidal?

 

[clarsct]

Bjorn: as ChristineR said, it would porbably take a host of trainers and dieticians to figure out what's going on with his body chemistry and take steps to try to alter it. These things are not cheap, and IIRC, Randfan is not independently wealthy(Join the club!).

RF: The average male height anymore is about 5'11", IIRC, so I'm assuming(taking a wild-ass guess) that you're near the 6' range. In which case most doctors would tell you to drop at least 100lbs.

I certainly don't have any cure or fixes for you, as I sit here munching my Pot Roast with Taters and Gravy, and I assume you've spoken with several professionals.

As to the OP, I still find it insulting. I mean, F'rChrissake, these people don't need to be told to 'get thin'.


I use the term 'DrPhilism' for any random psychobabble. Most people's obesity has a lot more to do with their mental health than their physical health.

I dunno RF. Best I can say is try to see if you can find a dietician that you can work with. Could be what you're eating to lose weight is incompatible with your metabolism. I know Freakshow was having severe health problems until they figured out he was gluten-intolerant.

 

[mgidm86]

Hell, in this lawsuit-happy day and age, bottled water should come with warnings not to freeze it and whack your kids over the head with it, or boil it and pour it on your privates.

Awesome.

 

[casebro]

There is a possibility of a disease that could make it impossible to lose weight.

I do have a mitochondrial genetic disease that is the root cause of my diabetes. Some studies show 15% of diabetics have it. My muscles don't go into fat burning when they run out of sugars. The cells just die from lack of energy, in spite of having fat stores. I've never tried a 'starvation diet', but it may be IMPOSSIBLE for me to burn fat at all. My lifelong weight has been upwards only. I'm now at 1/6 of a ton. At least I'm still within the range of my scale. Perhaps Randfan has a similar metabolic problem? Other signs are maternally relations with: muscle pain, manic depression, migraines, deafness, pancreatitis.

While science has known for years the genes involved if some drastic diseases, like Down's syndeome and it's extra chromosome, current medical science is only starting to investigate the genetics of 'routine' diseases. With about 40 known genes tied to diabetes, blaming obesity seems like a very superficial diagnosis to me. Commonality/causality cliche. Pharmacogenetics is the name of the science, we should see more of it in the near future. It's most visible pronouncement so far has been to treat folks of African descent with different hypertension drugs than used for Whites.

 

[RandFan]

This might be true, although I would like to see that evidence - and certainly, any alcoholic, even "effectively treated", would have to alter his life significantly?

But not necessarily suffer so severely. There are medical programs that can help.

Don't agree on what? That "there will be pain and depressions along the way, and they will have to decide if it's worth it" - or that "if you're happy for a while and then you die, then surely it's better than being unhappy for a longer while and then die"?

1. It's not that simple. It's not a simple choice. On the contrary. What is "worth it" doesn't figure into it.
2. There is a third option.

By all means, go for whatever medications/treatments that are available. However, to a certain degree I think "tough it out" is one of the things addicts have to do.

I'm not sure some can do it without help. I think that is the part that you really don't get. I haven't given up and would be willing to try again. I just don't think you realize how difficult it is for some. The statistics support what I'm saying.

Perhaps not. However, I thought you introduced that dichotomy when you said:

No, you missed the point when I said I was being treated by a doctor and was in the UCLA bariatric program until I lost my insurance.

You feel suicidal when you alter your lifestyle, you feel well when you stop doing it.

Not when I'm getting medical help. Not when I was part of the UCLA program.

Aren't you looking for a way to change your lifestyle and eat less/exercise more without feeling suicidal?

YES, DUH! That is why I was part of the UCLA program. That is why I'm currently looking for something else. {sheesh}

 

[Kerberos]

No, its not a stupid question at all.

It's a difficult thing to explain. I would say that when I alter my life significantly by changing my lifestyle be it a reduction in calories or an increase in physical activity or a combination of both I don't feel normal. I don't sleep and I'm very irritable. Life becomes laborious and I start to get a feeling of dread. The longer I do whatever it is that is helping me lose weight the more unhappy and depressed I become. I hate to wake up in the morning and I have thoughts of suicide. It's like losing a loved one. Thing is, the moment I stop doing whatever it is that I'm doing to lose weight I have a tremendous feeling of well being. I used to diet just to have that feeling but it lead to binging and a dramatic weight increase.

My doctor started to treat me with anti-depressants while I was dieting and I was in the UCLA Bariatric weight loss program but I lost my insurance and now I'm out in the cold.

Do you know how common that is among overweight people? I always thought that it was when I began an exercise program where after some time I simply can't motivate myself to do it anymore couples with some kind of psychological dependency on unhealthy food. Significantly stronger than what I feel, but essentially comparable. I'm kind of curious whether I'm generally misinformed or if you're an exception.

 

[The Atheist]

This is a UK story. In the UK, we pay a lot of tax towards the National Health Service. The rising levels of obesity will, according to some experts, eventually bankrupt the NHS. At present, the treatment of obesity-related health problems (which are in the main self-inflicted, although as ID points out, there are exceptions including hormone problems) takes up 9% of the NHS budget, with one in five UK adults classed as obese.

However, if those numbers increase at the same rate, by 2010 one in three UK adults will be obese, and the associated health problems will increase proportionately.

A recent report (which the clothing label idea is part of) suggests that over the next 20 years, NHS spending because of obesity will increase by over £30billion. Hence, the govt. are looking for ways to tackle it.

So, that's why we should feel responsible. Because we foot the bill.

Sorry, but this is the same straw man the anti-smoking brigade roll out.

There is an obvious counter to this, so obvious, in fact, that almost everyone misses it!

Think about it for a second. Those people who get T2 diabetes and other obesity-related problems use large amounts of health dollars/pounds. They also die younger.

People dying younger saves governments money. How much additional expenditure would be required to pay old-age pensions for those surviving longer? And who's to say that a significant proportion of those longer-lived, formerly-fat people aren't going to contract Alzheimer's, with the astronomical cost of healthcare that requires, or other, equally-costly illnesses, thereby actually increasing the cost of overall healthcare.

Take the 30% as a given and work out what the cost of additional pensions will be, even if people live 10 years longer through being thinner. I'm constantly disappointed that people swallow these government, nanny-state rhetorical falsehoods.

Whatever happened to scepticism?

 

[tkingdoll]

Pensions? Er, you might want to look at UK pension provisions. If you don't have your own plans, you're pretty much stuffed.

Scepticism? What sort of argument is "if they live they might get an even more expensive illness"?

 

[dann]

Suicidal and misserable is NOT grumpy.

And even grumpy does not sound like 'quality time', worth getting thin for.
A few years ago I suffered from allergies to certain foodstuffs that caused me to become hyperactive, but at the time I had no idea what was causing it. (And, no, hyperactivity is not a very plesant state like e.g. 'energetic'. I felt very uncomfortable and restless.) Since the things I was allergic to were in every meal I had, I came to associate hyperactivity (very unpleasant) with eating my fill, satiety (very pleasant), to the extent that I felt no satiety when I became aware of my allergies and stopped eating the kinds of food that caused them, i.e. having had a full meal I stayed hungry because I did not get the 'buzz' of hyperactivity that my whole body had come to associate with eating.
In my case this very physical longing for the food that did not agree with me stayed for only a couple of weeks, but I am able to understand that an inability to deny yourself the amount of food that your body tells you that you need (liar!) is not simply a question of lack of willpower.

People just don't want to question their assumptions. Most people have some bit of woo.

Have you considered that maybe no solution is possible, i.e. a solution that would actually be preferable to your weight problem? Insisting that there is a solution sounds a little like wishful thinking (= woo) to me.

One of the Danish skeptics is one of the country's leading experts in nutrition and weight loss, and we have sometimes benefitted from his knowledge and access to the latest research. The following link made sense to me since I tend to lose weight without even thinking about it (and probably could not avoid it even if I tried) when I go south: The combination of heat, light and rest seems to do it for me, whereas the cold, dark Scandinavian winter and work-related stress is a condition that seems to make me gain weight no matter what I do to fight it. (Well, it does help a little if I stop eating large quantities of milk chocolate and replace them by small amounts of chocolate with a high content of cocoa.)
But if you haven't already considered this connection, it might be a good idea to try: Do you get enough sleep and rest?
But then again: This may have nothing to do with the way it works in your case. I'm not overweight, I'm 183-4 cm/6 foot, but my weight tends to fluctuate between 73 kilos/161 lbs. (summer, e.g. in Cuba or the Canaries) and 80 kilos/176 lbs. (by the end of winter in Denmark).

 

[dann]

Sorry, but this is the same straw man the anti-smoking brigade roll out.
(...)
People dying younger saves governments money.

F*** the government. In the case of obesity, at least there's no such thing as passive eating!

 

[ponderingturtle]

Obese should have health warnings on their clothes.

Excuse me, but you are fat....

Ahhh... Duh.

Ok, they are saying that there should be help line phone numbers sewn into fat people's clothes ("help me, I'm fat and I can't stop eating").

Some people are f'ing clueless.

"Hey, I know, let's sew phone #'s into people's clothes" that will help.

This is so stupid, for one it does not compaire say someone who is 5' tall to someone who is 6'6" tall, if it is standard labels I would always have to wear cloths saying I am fat no matter how much weight I lost, because it is not my gut that overly determines the size of my clothes.

 

[Dancing David]

Concerning thermodynamics: Unless you are a professional athlete, the majority of your calorie consumption goes towards keeping your internal organs alive and working, and maintaining your internal body temperature. Your body has numerous mechanisms for saving on these, such as making you extremely tired, or shutting down capillary blood flow to the skin.

Quite a few studies show that fat people do not eat more than thin people, but that the fat people are less active. Once upon a time I clawed through the net and collected references, but I don't know if I could find them again.

There are many factors in what makes people overweight, some have suggested that some people's bodies have a higher tendency to convert extra food to fat. A very good survival trait in a low fat enviroment.

The exercise thing is also true, but if you consume three thousnad calories a day that doesn't help.

And then there are all the dynamics of mood altering behaviors.

 

[Dancing David]

So why is most of the focus on food? I think it's because there's more money to be made by selling supposedly healthy food/diets, than there is by offering physical training for fat people.

Bingo! It is harder to market life style changes, you can't just eat a box of healthy choices and turn around your life in thirty minutes.

 

[Dancing David]

Do you know how common that is among overweight people? I always thought that it was when I began an exercise program where after some time I simply can't motivate myself to do it anymore couples with some kind of psychological dependency on unhealthy food. Significantly stronger than what I feel, but essentially comparable. I'm kind of curious whether I'm generally misinformed or if you're an exception.

It varies, ADs can make some people hungrier, for me the Zoloft takes away some interesting things, one of them is the feeling of being hungry all the time. Literally, that feeling of being empty, although there is a huge emotional component. I alos tend to stress of comfort eat, so an AD can help me to stabalize my weight, especialy since I sleep through the night with Zoloft.

 

[Dancing David]

My doctor started to treat me with anti-depressants while I was dieting and I was in the UCLA Bariatric weight loss program but I lost my insurance and now I'm out in the cold.

Ouch, i hate that, I spent a miserable year and a half without Zoloft. I hope that you find a source for your AD soon.(I get miserable very easily without it.)