War movie sweeps Oscars

shanek said:


War isn't the "correct choice" in either the books or the movies. It is an inevitability. Showing that even a necessary and just war is horrible, to me, is the greatest anti-war message of them all. It is ONLY something you should do when you have no other choice, and even then, it ain't pretty.
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I guess we just have different ideas about what constitutes an antiwar message, because I don't believe that that is an antiwar message at all.

The war was not inevitable for everyone (particularly the Elves) and still they fought.

You say that Tolkein came to this conclusion based on his experiences in WWI? Certainly there were a lot more books coming out of WWI that had somewhat more conventional antiwar themes.
 
Almost everyone is anti-war, kids. I think Tolkien was a realistic about it as anyone could be...some people lived, some people died, no one was unchanged at the end.
 
aerocontrols said:
I guess we just have different ideas about what constitutes an antiwar message, because I don't believe that that is an antiwar message at all.
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Perhaps. But do keep in mind that the koan of the anti-war movement is, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" Not, "What if they gave a war and only one side came?"

The war was not inevitable for everyone (particularly the Elves) and still they fought.
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That's arguable at best. With the One Ring, Sauron could have taken over, not just Middle Earth, but the whole world. And remember, three of the rings were given to the Elves. Remember, "One ring to rule them all, one ring to...bind them"? We saw what Galadriel could have easily become once seduced by the power of the One Ring. She could easily have ended up being Saruman II: Electric Boogaloo.
 
Claims that Tolkien had WW1 or WW2 in mind are disputed in the author's own words in the forward of his published books of the trilogy.
 
shanek said:
You people (who have seen/read it, at least) do realize that LotR is an anti-war story, based on Tolkien's experiences in WWI, right?
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Not according to his own words. OK, he was in the trenches during WW1 (invalided out of the Somme with trench foot), but he always maintained that the books were pure fantasy, with no connection to either ww1 or ww2. He was apparently proccupied with anglo-saxon literature, and wanted to produce an anglo-saxon version of the nordic and icelandic mythologies.
 
Close but not entirely accurate

He wrote the books as an exercise of developing languages and morphology of speech construction as he was a linguist.
 
severin said:
Is it really such a suprise that ROTK won so many awards? A film featuring a big war where good triumphs over evil with no-one to suggest that it was an 'unjust war' or to ask awkward questions about WMDs? I'm not a fan of LOTR, book or film, so maybe I'm being a bit cynical but a feel-good fantasy war movie that wins so many awards in a year of good films does make me wonder.
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"Ain't it great!?"
--Tom Cruize after he starts a gunight in TAPS.

My son is doing a report on anti-war movies including movies that aren't anti-war per se but leave a distinctful anti war taste in your mouth. Since this is one of my favorite topics I have really enjoyed our time together talking about the really great ones. Catch-22, The Boys in Company C, All quite on the wester front, Dr. Strange Love, Fail Safe, Saving Private Ryan, We Were Soldiers, Apocolypse Now, Platoon, etc.

These movies are very important and I want my son to grow up with a healthy dislike of war and understand as best as anyone who has never been there that "war is hell".

That being said I loved LOTR. There is evil in this world and there are times when it must be confronted. It is not always black and white. Not every world Leader is commiting genocide. But we better be ready to go to war to confront evil when we must.

(Please See Sig.)
 
fwiw... if anyone didn't see 2 and 3 because they didn't like 1: I disliked 1 but LOVED 2 and 3.

varwoche
 
TillEulenspiegel said:
Close but not entirely accurate

He wrote the books as an exercise of developing languages and morphology of speech construction as he was a linguist.
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And at the same time he wanted to create a mythology for England which he felt lacked one (Arthurian legends notwithstanding, since he felt that was just lifted from French legends).

And yes, he was always adamant that LOTR was not an allegory for WW2 or anything else, for that matter (much of the story already having been worked out before WW2 even began), but his depictions of war were certainly inspired by his own experiences in WW1. Most of his friends were killed in that war. LOTR had more to do with death than war alone.
 
shanek said:
You people (who have seen/read it, at least) do realize that LotR is an anti-war story, based on Tolkien's experiences in WWI, right?
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I always thought they were more an anti-corporation story... ;) (Well at least an anti-industry story.)
 
As far as war bias in the Academy Awards it's worth noting two of the most anti-war actors I can think of, Sean Penn and Tim Robbins, both won their categories.
 
Darat - you're right, there was a strong anti-industry element to the book. Tolkein was very big on pastoral pre-industrial nostalgia. The hobbits were simple tillers of the soil, living in their no-mod-cons holes. He was in that sense close to various artists who mythologised and idealised the pre-industrial past as a better place, conveniently ignoring the facts about how short, tough and disease-ridden life was before the Industrial Revolution. We should all, apparently, go back to living close to the land (have you smellt cow poo lately???).

Tolkein was trying to create an English (not British) mythology but it seems odd that he should do this by lifting great chunks from Scandinavian and Celtic myths rather than start from scratch. Gandalf is a dead ringer for Odin, for example, even down to the description of his hat. The hobbits are the plucky little Englanders resisting the wicked empire (and we have been invaded and nearly invaded enough times for that to ring a bell with most people - Romans, Saxons, Danes, French (successful), Spanish (failed), French (failed) Germans...).

There have been various documentaries about him on UK television and I did see one that said he was influenced more by World War 1 than its sequel.

I'm not a fan of the book as it's too much about male bonding, initiatiation, rites of passage etc and the style is, frankly, bloody awful. I've read it twice and I'm not about to read it again this side of reincarnation. Sod the hobbits, I say. But then, that's just my humble opinion.
 
Perhaps the third episode of the trilogy won so many awards because the first two won so few and the members of the Academy decided that the entire effort deserved some recognition. In some categories, it won because it was clearly the best (special effects) and in some categories, it won because it sucked the least (best song).

Also note that some members of the Academy vote for one or two categories and then give the ballots to their spouses or children to complete.
 
Ladewig said:
Perhaps the third episode of the trilogy won so many awards because the first two won so few and the members of the Academy decided that the entire effort deserved some recognition.
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True, and that was probably the right thing to do. After all, it truly was one movie, albiet a very long one. All three films were made at once, which is almost unheard of for multi-part movies. Also, it was adapted from a single book (Tolkien didn't want it split up, but the publishers insisted). You could almost say, that LOTR actually took more oscars than any other movie, since both the first and second installments won a few. 'Course, its hard to say if winning two "best costumes" oscars should count as one or two awards.
 
TillEulenspiegel said:
Claims that Tolkien had WW1 or WW2 in mind are disputed in the author's own words in the forward of his published books of the trilogy.
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Actually, what Tolkien disputes is that the books are allegory. But there's a big difference between allegory and influence.

Tolkien is known to have enjoyed walks in the woods. So do hobbits; an awful lot of FOTR describes them walking through the Shire. Tolkien is known to have disliked industry, automobiles, and mechanization. And Srauman builds these big contraptions, not only in Isengard but in the Shire. Tolkien is known to have been in WWI and hated it. People and hobbits in the books express hatred for war.

So, is LOTR an allegory of walking around? No. Does it incorporate the author's sensibilities? Hell yeah.
 
shanek said:
You people (who have seen/read it, at least) do realize that LotR is an anti-war story, based on Tolkien's experiences in WWI, right?
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I don't recall getting that impression from the DVD commentaries, in fact the DVD commentary made a point to mention Tolkien did not like allegory and did not like to write (nor read) stories that included allegory.

Tolkien Served in WWI and lost many friends, thats true, but he did not ever communicate an anti-war stance. He may have disagreed, as many did after the war, about the tactics of WWI and the heavy losses incurred in attempts to advance, but I actually don't recall if the DVD made any comments about his opinions on military strategy or tactics.
 
I feel sorry for all those really short actors. Where are they going to find work now? Any chance of a Wizard of Oz remake?
 
TillEulenspiegel said:
Close but not entirely accurate

He wrote the books as an exercise of developing languages and morphology of speech construction as he was a linguist.
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there is probably a high degree of truth to this

I have also read in biographies of C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien that the two had unique comradarie that included several emotions and compatible character traits: pride, ego, competition, envy, work-a-holism.

JRR was supposedly envious of Lewis' apparant ease at writing (The Narnia Chronicles for example). The relationship inspired Tolkien to continue to toil on MiddleEarth, to challenge Lewis' Narnia. IMO, MiddleEarth beats Narnia hands down in terms of depth.
 
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