Wallace Thornhill: The Long Path to Understanding Gravity | EU2015

Someone asking there why gravity is "magic" when electrostatic attaction/repulsion is not.
That is the same thing I am always wondering about, why is gravity "not understood" whereas to charges acting forces on each other is "understood".

Two reasons that I can see.

First, there is the difference described in general relativity. General relativity theory places gravity in a position much different from the other fundamental forces. Gravity satisfies the law of equivalence. The other fundamental forces do not satisfy the law of equivalence.

No one understands why gravity is different from electromagnetism, strong nuclear force, and weak nuclear force. Einstein himself was uncomfortable with this difference. He made an unsuccessful attempt to explain this difference which is sometimes called 'unified field theory'. So there is an self confessed shortfall in Einstein's understanding.

Second, gravity works over a far greater distance than the other fundamental charges. This is because gravity has only one type of charge, which is positive mass. There can't be any negative mass to as can be proven with the law of equivalence. Electromagnetism has two types of charge, which are positive and negative. When the two charges are close together, then the two charges cancel each other out at large distances. So gravitational forces beat electromagnetic forces over very large distances. However, mythological stories seem to contradict this.


Velokovsky's historical theories requires short range forces that dominate the dynamics on a solar system size scale. His comets in 'collision theory' requires all significant forces to be short range. If gravity was significant, then his narrative can not possibly be true. For instance:

Velockosvky claims that Saturn was once close enough to the earth for humans to see the rings. If gravity really existed, then Saturn's gravity would have destroyed the earth at that range.

Velikovsy claims that Venus was once a comet that came close enough to the earth to be seen. Venus is made mostly of dense rock. So if there was gravity, Venus would have destroyed the earth.

Velikovsky claims that a piece of Venus tore lose from Jupiter. If there was gravity as understood in Principia or GR, then gravity would have pulled Venus back into Jupiter.

Velikovsky claims that Jupiter came so close to the earth, that animals from Jupiter were pulled to the surface of the earth by electromagnetic forces. These he claims were the locusts and other animals that appear in Exodus during the Ten Plagues. This also explains the 'lightening' seen as fiery rain. However, this requires forces that were restricted to the surface of Jupiter. Gravity would have pulled more material from Jupiter to the earth.

Velikovsky justifies his historical narrative with the hypothesis that oral narratives are more reliable than written records. He is also claiming that only he has the insight necessary to understand oral narratives. So if an oral narrative as he interprets it contradicts Principia OR GR, then Principia or GR must be wrong. So if the oral narrative indicates that all forces, as Velikovsky understands them, are short range, then there can be no long range forces. Hence, no gravity.

Goodbye, Gravity! We never knew ye!
 
Velikovsky claims that Jupiter came so close to the earth, that animals from Jupiter were pulled to the surface of the earth by electromagnetic forces. These he claims were the locusts and other animals that appear in Exodus during the Ten Plagues.


So the frogs and locusts that normally inhabit Jupiter, just climb aboard a Birkeland current and ride it unscathed, straight to Egypt. Oh yeah, that’s a believable story.
 
Darwin123, I think you're making a mistake.

It is easy to read a crackpot story and say "Velikovsky believed X, and that forced him to also believe Y because of contradiction Z." But I don't think that's how he worked at all.

Velikovsky had a large collection of facts at his disposal. He looked at them and told himself elaborate stories that included some of them. If he stumbled across a fact that he enjoyed including in his story, that he intuitively felt strengthened it in some way, he emphasized it and labeled it as important. Thats ... well, that's sort of it.

Are you suggesting that Velikovsky looked scientifically at a Saturn-Earth encounter, asked himself how gravity would have acted, and concluded that Newtonian gravity must not have been present? I don't buy it. I think he was literally just spinning yarns. Talking about lightning bolts and drawing pictures of them is fun and satisfying to him and made him feel good about his idea. Plugging numbers and conserved quantities into Kepler's equations was boring, so he didn't do it. Looking carefully through boring facts, looking for boring contradictions, was boring too, so he didn't do it. Is there any strictly-logical connection between "Velikovsky's story includes E&M more than gravity" and "Velikovsky's story includes things that violate Newton's gravity"? I doubt it.
 
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Are you suggesting that Velikovsky looked scientifically at a Saturn-Earth encounter, asked himself how gravity would have acted, and concluded that Newtonian gravity must not have been present? I don't buy it. I think he was literally just spinning yarns. Talking about lightning bolts and drawing pictures of them is fun and satisfying to him and made him feel good about his idea. Plugging numbers and conserved quantities into Kepler's equations was boring, so he didn't do it. Looking carefully through boring facts, looking for boring contradictions, was boring too, so he didn't do it. Is there any strictly-logical connection between "Velikovsky's story includes E&M more than gravity" and "Velikovsky's story includes things that violate Newton's gravity"? I doubt it.

I would never accuse Velikovsky of looking at anything scientifically!

Velikovsky claimed that he was looking at gravity scientifically but not quantitatively. He didn’t think that qualitative calculations were necessary to disprove Principia. He searched for phenomena that confirmed his cynicism toward physicists. He listed 44 ‘contradictions’ without examining the alternative explanations that had already been largely verified for why the law of gravity was ‘wrong’.


I was just conjecturing on the reasons for his single minded attack on two hundred years of physics research. I am presenting my hypothesis as to why he even bothered to write his ‘critique’ of the law of gravity.

He was a bit pretentious. He actually believed that his ‘expertise’ in folklore trumped scientific analysis. He really thought that his knowledge of the humanities made him a better physicist than Einstein.


Velikovsky primarily rejected the physical theories of gravity based on the fact that they contradicted his narrative in the ‘Worlds in Collsion’ theory. He supported his ‘disbelief in gravity’ with a superficial listing of phenomena which didn’t fit his elementary school background in science. If you don’t believe it, then read:


http://www.varchive.org/ce/cosmos.htm
‘Cosmos Without Gravity
Velikovsky
Synopsis
….Aside from several important facts discovered in the study of cosmic upheavals, which are not illuminated here and only enumerated at the end of this paper, and which are discussed at length in a work of research entitled Worlds In Collision now being prepared for publication, the following facts are incompatible with the theory of gravitation:’

The quote above shows that the ‘Worlds in Collision’ model was the primary reason for rejecting Principia. Reading the rest of the essay will convince you that he did not even try to understand any physical science. The man had no understanding of chemistry or mechanics. He was proud of his ignorance.


Velikovsky could have been Dunning and Krugers case study. Velikovsky thought that he knew more than every physicist on earth.

I dare you to read 'Cosmos without Gravity' without laughing 44 times! :)
 
Ihttp://www.varchive.org/ce/cosmos.htm
...I dare you to read 'Cosmos without Gravity' without laughing 44 times! :)
Got some spare time so: Laugh number
  1. Argument from incredibility that the atmosphere is not mixed by convection :eye-poppi.
  2. Argument from ignorance about ozone and the ozone layer.
  3. Argument from incredibility - "Water, though eight hundred times heavier than air ..." so clouds should not exist!
  4. Argument from ignorance - "if perfect elasticity is a quality of the molecules of all gases" then momentum is conserved!
  5. A "god of the gaps" argument: Meteorology did not know everything according to Velikovsky (semidiurnal changes in barometric pressure) so ... electricity does it!
  6. Argument from ignorance: The height of the atmosphere depends on the criteria you us to define what the atmosphere is!
    Laplace (23 March 1749 – 5 March 1827) made a calculation of the height of the atmosphere treating it s a gravitationally bound fluid - 21,000 miles.
    Someone else did a similar calculation with what looks like better data on atmospheric pressure and got ~17,000 miles.
    Meteorites burn up as one height, the polar auroras are at another height and radio waves bounce off layer at a third height - Velikovsky did not recognize that these are different things!
  7. A "god of the gaps" argument: "The movement of anticyclones has not been explained and is regarded as enigmatic".
    Followed by a lie: Having a explanation of cyclones that does not cover anticyclones means that there is a different explanation for anticyclones.
  8. Argument from fantasy: Velikovsky makes up a story about the Earth being "unequally loaded" due to surface features and imagines that would "affect the position of the earth".
    Followed by a fairy story about the changing seasonal distribution of ice and snow "should interfere with the equilibrium of the earth".
  9. Argument from outdated sources, incredibility and quote mining?: In 1855, G. B. Airy measured the effect the Himalayas had on a plumb line and got a result that did not match predictions. This lead to the idea of idea of isostasy.
    Velikovsky cannot understand that under high pressure rock that is "rigid as steel" flows like a liquid.
    Velikovsky ends with a single sentence from a textbook without context.
  10. A "god of the gaps" argument: "Over the oceans, the gravitational pull is greater than over the continents, though according to the theory of gravitation the reverse should be true...".
    Followed by what looks like cheery picking old data:
    "As far as observations could establish, the sea tides [and reservoirs] do not influence the plumb line, which is contrary to what is expected...". No citation to tides data but the reservoirs is to a 1893 experiment.
  11. Argument from ignorance: "The atmospheric pressure of the sun, instead of being 27.47 times greater than the atmospheric pressure of the earth..."
    The solar atmosphere is not just under gravitational pull - it is also under an opposite pressure from its high temperature :eek:
  12. Argument from ignorance: The Sun is not a rigid body so expecting it to behave the same is wrong.
  13. Argument from total ignorance: Molten bodes form spheres. Even without gravity surface tension makes molten bodies into spheres.
  14. Argument from ignorance: Kepler formulated his laws from observations of orbits. Newton's law of gravitation gives obits that obey Kepler's laws. The Newtonian orbits do not differ from the Keplerian orbits!
  15. Argument from nonsense: "Perturbations of planets ..." is nonsense. The best interpretation is a statement that perturbations can be positive or negative and ignorance about astronomy. Astronomers in 1946 knew that orbits were perturbed. The calculation of the perturbations of Mercury caused by other planets was needed so show that Newtonian gravity was not correct. This was first reported in 1859!
  16. Argument from ignorance of his own argument: The previous point was that orbits were assumed to be not perturbed but here he is reporting a perturbation of Jupiter's orbit!
    Unless this is Velikovsky's assumption from ignorance about gravity.
  17. Argument from fantasy: He spins a story about light pressure from the Sun having a observable effect on the orbits of planets.
  18. Argument from outdated sources: Lodge, Philos. Mag., Feb. 19, 1918. found that the effect of the motion of the Sun on orbit eccentricities "far exceeds the observed values".
  19. Bad scholarship: No citations for GR being unable to account for the perihelion precession of Venus and Mars.
    This may be a lie - the perihelion precession of Venus and Mars may not have been accurately measured enough for a comparison.
  20. ...
 
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[*]A "god of the gaps" argument: "Over the oceans, the gravitational pull is greater than over the continents, though according to the theory of gravitation the reverse should be true...".

BTW: The first part of his this sentence is true. However, the second part is false.

The density of the oceanic crust is greater than the density of the continental crust because they are made of different rocks. The continents are mostly made of granite, and low in iron. The oceanic floor is made of basalt, and is high in iron.

Thus the density of the continents is lower than the density of the ocean floor. Therefore, the gravitational pull over the oceans is supposed to be higher than the gravitational pull over the continents according to the law of gravity.

The difference in density also affects plumb lines.
 
Wallace Thornhill: The Long Path to Understanding Gravity | EU2015

For Velikovskians, a very long path indeed.
 
[*]Bad scholarship: No citations for GR being unable to account for the perihelion precession of Venus and Mars.
This may be a lie - the perihelion precession of Venus and Mars may not have been accurately measured enough for a comparison.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.0176

Perihelion precession of Venus and Earth have been measured and found to agree with GR. I think the GR effect is too small to measure for Mars (and the precession due to Jupiter probably larger too).
 
Looking carefully through boring facts, looking for boring contradictions, was boring too, so he didn't do it. Is there any strictly-logical connection between "Velikovsky's story includes E&M more than gravity" and "Velikovsky's story includes things that violate Newton's gravity"? I doubt it.

So do I. However, he must have received many letters and comments from physicists and chemists. They would have told him how his 'theory' violates orbital mechanics and physics in general. Geologists and biologists would have told them how his theories violate basic patterns observed on this earth.

He may not have understood these criticisms. but he would perceive them as threats to his world view. His argument was typical of Dunning Krueger syndrome. He was an expert who could not be contradicted!

He thought that contamination could go two ways. He thought that higher temperatures could increase the rate that animals (vermin) on earth propagate. So he thought that this high temperature could cause the Plagues of Egypt in Exodus. However, he also suggested that animals could be carried in ‘the trailing atmosphere’ of a Venus. The trailing atmosphere of Venus would be the tail of a comet, since Venus was a comet at that time.

Velikovsky apparently didn’t know much about biology. He thought that heat by itself could make animals propagate faster. He thought that insect larvae can live in an atmosphere devoid of oxygen. All land animals require gaseous oxygen, insects included. Yes, biologists knew that even then!

It is also interesting that he did not really distinguish between small animals. He called them all ‘vermin’. He didn’t even refer to them as ‘small animals’. While not a mistake, per se, it indicates an ignorance of taxonomy.

I had the direction the wrong way around. He thought that animals from the earth infested other planets. He predicts that ‘vermin’ could fly through space, survive, and propagate on other planets.

Here is a little Velikovsky wisdom.


http://skepdic.com/velikov.html

‘When Venus sprang out of Jupiter as a comet and flew very close to the earth, it became entangled in the embrace of the earth. The internal heat developed by the earth and the scorching gases of the comet were in themselves sufficient to make the vermin of the earth propagate at a very feverish rate. Some of the plagues [mentioned in Exodus] like the plague of the frogs...or of the locusts, must be ascribed to such causes (192).
The question arises here whether or not the comet Venus infested the earth with vermin which it may have carried in its trailing atmosphere in the form of larvae together with stones and gases. It is significant that all around the world people have associated the planet Venus with flies (193).
The ability of many small insects and their larvae to endure great cold and heat and to live in an atmosphere devoid of oxygen renders not entirely improbable the hypothesis that Venus (and also Jupiter, from which Venus sprang) may be populated by vermin (195).’

So that is where the name, ‘Venus Fly Trap’, come from! Obviously, the name comes from the comet Venus that was trapping flies!

I always wondered! :D
 
So that is where the name, ‘Venus Fly Trap’, come from! Obviously, the name comes from the comet Venus that was trapping flies!

I always wondered! :D


Nah, that's where the name 'claptrap' comes from -- and all the myriad synonyms: Velikovsky, Thornhill, Talbott, Scott, Robitaille, Crothers, et al.
 
Nah, that's where the name 'claptrap' comes from -- and all the myriad synonyms: Velikovsky, Thornhill, Talbott, Scott, Robitaille, Crothers, et al.

Many of the errors that Velikovsky makes can be explained by examining square-cube relations. For example, let us consider two mistakes: #17 and #22.

Velikovsky has made a rather significant reversal in going from #17 to #22.

First, he says that radiation pressure should push the planets and moons from their orbit.

http://www.varchive.org/ce/cosmos.htm
17.The pressure of light emanating from the sun should slowly change the orbits of the satellites, pushing them more than the primaries, and acting constantly, this pressure should have the effect of acceleration: the pressure of light per unit of mass is greater in relation to the satellites than in relation to their primaries. But this change fails to materialize; a regulating force seems to overcome this unequal light pressure on primaries and secondaries.

Yet he assumes that this same radiation pressure can not push the tails of comets.

http://www.varchive.org/ce/cosmos.htm
22. The tails of the comets do not obey the principle of gravitation and are repelled by the sun. “There is beyond question some profound secret and mystery of nature concerned in the phenomenon of their tails” ; enormous sweep which it (the tail) makes round the sun in perihelion, in the manner of a straight and rigid rod, is in defiance of the law of gravitation, nay, even of the recorded laws of motion” (J. Herschel).


Strangely, he ignores the explanation for comets tails which was known even at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
‘Solar radiation pressure strongly affects comet tails. Solar heating causes gases to be released from the comet nucleus, which also carry away dust grains. Radiation pressure and solar wind then drive the dust and gases away from the Sun's direction. The gases form a generally straight tail, while slower moving dust particles create a broader, curving tail.’

The reason one could ignore solar radiation in the case of the planets but not the comets tail is because the particles in the comets tail (atoms, molecules) are much less massive than a planet (Earth, Venus, Jupiter).

This is basically a square-cube law. The mass of a particle increases with the cube of the diameter of the particle. The cross section that intercepts the radiation increases with the square of the diameter. So the mass to cross section ratio linearly increases with the diameter of the planet.

The mass to cross section ratio basically determines which force dominates. Comet tails are small diameter particles. The radiation pressure dominates so the tail goes outward. The planets are large diameter particles. The gravity dominates so the planets move inward. The comet nucleus is large enough to act like a planet.

Note: Halleys comet nucleus is about the size of Manhattan Island in New York. Methane, a typical molecule in comet tails, is made of about 5 atoms. So gravity dominates the motion of Halley's comet nucleus while radiation pressure dominates the motion of Halley's tail.

Not including jets that erupt from the nucleus, of course. They cause slight changes in the motion of the nucleus. However, they don't make the nucleus velocity completely switch in direction. The gases in the tail are always going away from the sun due to radiation pressure. The ice and rock in the nucleus is always going to go toward the sun due to gravity.

Here is a link on square-cube laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law
‘The square-cube law (or cube-square law) is a mathematical principle, applied in a variety of scientific fields, which describes the relationship between the volume and the area as a shape's size increases or decreases. It was first described in 1638 by Galileo Galilei in his Two New Sciences as the "...ratio of two volumes is greater than the ratio of their surfaces." [1]
This principle states that, as a shape grows in size, its volume grows faster than its surface area. When applied to the real world this principle has many implications which are important in fields ranging from mechanical engineering to biomechanics. It helps explain phenomena including why large mammals like elephants have a harder time cooling themselves than small ones like mice, and why building taller and taller skyscrapers is increasingly difficult.’

Note that Velikovsky has it precisely backwards. Further, he has not made any effort to examine what other scientists say on the these matters.

I always wanted to argue with a Velikovsky believer on this point. However, I haven’t found one willing to discuss gravity with me.

Are there any Velikovsky believers out there? Velikovsky, Thornhill, Talbott, Scott, Robitaille, Crothers, et al.? Any Electrical Universe people out there?

PLEASE, guys, contradict me!:p
 
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Velikovsky is often touted as a good scholar. But that J. Herschel citation is abysmal scholarship: Outlines of Astronomy (1849), John Herschel. Apparently Velikovsky was ignorant of almost a century of astronomy!
Velikovsky was cherry picking quotes, no matter how outdated, to support his prejudices. He wanted comet tails to be unexplained so he hunted until he found a 90 year old quote saying they are mysterious.
 
Over in the Thunderdolts forum, there's a couple of recent, fascinating threads on Crothers' and Thornhill's ideas. A member named David had been quite active, posting robust, well-researched and reasoned critiques of both; Crothers made a brief appearance too. Then yesterday David Talbott banned David.

Another active member, querious, has also posted also quite a few robust, well-researched and reasoned critiques, particularly of Thornhill's ideas on gravity. He's been warned, in effect, to stop.

But perhaps the most interesting posts are by BecomingTesla, who is certainly an EU fan, but has been quite demanding in terms of solid foundations for EU claims and stances. Responses to his posts are, um, interesting! ;)

Finally, in a remote corner of the website, a member has laid out a plan to edit the RationalWiki's entry on the EU ...
 
Study of striations in a spherically symmetric Hydrogen discharge by discharge by W Lowell Morgan and Montgomery W Childs; published in Plasma Sources Science and Technology.
No sign though of the SAFIR project or Electric Universe woo in the abstract or this pre-print (PDF) from 2/2/2015 prepared fro submission to Physical Review E and presumably rejected.

Seems not related to SAFIRE unless SAFIRE is so simplistic to be a really stupid model of the Sun. This paper is on "initial small scale experiments using a small iron electrode in a glass bell jar".
 
Seems not related to SAFIRE unless SAFIRE is so simplistic to be a really stupid model of the Sun. This paper is on "initial small scale experiments using a small iron electrode in a glass bell jar".

Ahh, I'm beginning to think there might be a method to their madness, here. EU stump up the cash to investigate something Childs and his mate know is complete bobbins, but see an opportunity to do their own research and experiments on the side. Brilliant. When the whole thing is over, they just send an e-mail to Wal saying "Had a look at this electric sun malarkey; turns out to be bobbins. Thanks for the money."
 
But perhaps the most interesting posts are by BecomingTesla, who is certainly an EU fan, but has been quite demanding in terms of solid foundations for EU claims and stances.


This comment definitely caught my eye; amazingly it was allowed to stand and even went unchallenged:

BecomingTesla said:
Thornhill should never be allowed to speak for the EU paradigm as a whole, particularly because he spouts this kind of freaking nonsense... He's talking completely out of his ass.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16030#p109047


One of many nasty habits Thornhill picked up from Talbott and Crothers.
 
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This comment definitely caught my eye; amazingly it was allowed to stand and even went unchallenged:

The guy is actually posting on Phys.org as carlo_piantini, and identifies himself in one of the posts as "becoming tesla" on thunderdolts. One of the saner ones, although that's not saying much!
http://phys.org/news/2015-11-close-up-view-galaxies-prompts-re-think.html

On another note, I had a re-read of Tim Thompson's put down of Scott and Thornhill from a decade and a half ago. Devastating, and still stands today.
http://www.tim-thompson.com/electric-sun.html
http://www.tim-thompson.com/grey-areas.html
 

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