Wall a huge failure

[Jim Bowen]

I see that you are still ignoring facts, Mycroft. You predicted that I wouldn't try and find a fact that you have ignored. Fund one first attempt: on page 3 of this debate, where A_U_P presents evidence concerning post traumatic stress disorders. Let me make a prediction in turn; I predict that you will continue to make posts on a tit for tat basis without actually addressing any of the issues that you find inconvenient. When you want to debate an issue, instead of one-sided ranting about it, let me know.

Jim Bowen

 

[The Fool]

Israel has made mistakes, I don't deny that.

I'm just curious...can you name one?

 

[Atlas]

I'm just curious...can you name one?

One was referenced on powerlineblog today. Would this count?

Shimon Peres is the former Prime Minister of Israel; as Yitzhak Rabin's Foreign Minister he was an architect of the Oslo Accords that brought Yasser Arafat and the PLO to power on the West Bank and Gaza. In 1994 Peres shared the Nobel Peace Prize with Rabin and Arafat.

Rabin and Peres made the cynical calculation that Arafat's brutal thuggery would be turned on the Arabs in the territories that had become a burden for Israel to govern under civilized constraints. Their bargain with Arafat must be judged one of the twentieth century's most stupid acts of statesmanship -- stupidity for which Israel and others continue to pay the price.

 

[a_unique_person]

One was referenced on powerlineblog today. Would this count?

If you were trying to make yourself out to be a smartarse, yes.

 

[Mycroft]

One was referenced on powerlineblog today. Would this count?

You know, the funny thing is that's exactly the answer I had in mind when I read the Fool's question. Then I scrolled down...and there it was!

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
I see that you are still ignoring facts, Mycroft. You predicted that I wouldn't try and find a fact that you have ignored. Fund one first attempt: on page 3 of this debate, where A_U_P presents evidence concerning post traumatic stress disorders. Let me make a prediction in turn; I predict that you will continue to make posts on a tit for tat basis without actually addressing any of the issues that you find inconvenient. When you want to debate an issue, instead of one-sided ranting about it, let me know.

Uh-huh. And I responded by saying, "I'm not ignoring it at all. The stress of fighting an Intifada must be tremendous. One of your own sources spoke about the huge numbers of children having post traumatic stress disorder and said the Gaza Strip had the highest proportion of bed-wetters in the world. Isn't it time to admit its failure, go back to Camp David and negotiate an end to it?"

So what else am I supposed to say? Should I disagree that a lot of Palestinian-Arabs kids are suffering post traumatic stress disorder? It seems pretty natural that they would be, their leaders are pushing them into this war they can't win.

Do you think maybe many Israelis are suffering post traumatic stress disorder also? I bet the bystander who got too close to a suicide bomber attack and had to wash someone's brains out of his hair and later found someone’s teeth sticking to his clothes might have some emotional issues to deal with too, you think?

Post traumatic stress disorder doesn’t prove who’s right and who’s wrong. What it proves is that war is hell, and it’s bad above and beyond statistics on the injured and killed. If you feel sympathy for these people, and you should, you need to look honestly at the cause of their suffering. Like Arafat escalating the violence after Oslo (speaking of ignoring facts, AUP was going to get back to me about this one. Generations of crickets have turned to dust, he seems to have forgotten) or walking away from negotiations at Camp David, or organizing this intifada, shaping it and keeping it going no matter what the hardships, both economical and physical it inflicts on the Palestinian-Arabs.

BTW, did you read any of those links provided by AUP? There are plenty of facts in there you and he like to ignore. Let’s look at some of them:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/21/1098316787393.html?oneclick=true

Keep in mind this is a source provided by AUP, not me.

A Friday afternoon in Gaza City and a Palestinian militant group is staging a passing-out parade for its newest graduates. On a dirt soccer pitch, 24 masked recruits of the Popular Resistance Committee go through a program of song, march and very ragged foot drill. Some clutch real rifles, others wooden cut-outs...

…When the masks come off, one reason for the play-acting becomes immediately apparent: several of these would be "fighters" are barely 12 years old.

Wow. Twelve year-old kids "playing" with real guns while their parents look on. What’s keeping this conflict going? Is it any wonder there is post traumatic stress disorder? My daughter is 12 years old, she’s never seen a gun in her life. If I gave her a rifle and tried to train her to kill people, she’d have nightmares and become a bedwetter too.

As with all the children and youths in the trainee group, Ahmed is wearing a black T-shirt bearing the name of the Popular Resistance Committees. It also shows a Kalashnikov rifle over a silhouette of Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque and the slogan "Kill them where you find them".

All the kids in this training camp are wearing these T-shirts. Did they all spontaneously decide to buy them in a fit of despair? No, it’s a uniform. Adults had them made and gave them to the kids. My kid got a soccer jersey in the same way. Next year it will be a cheer-leaders uniform. What are these kids being taught? Who’s doing the teaching? What’s keeping this conflict going?

"I'd like to carry out a martyrdom attack (suicide bombing) for the sake of God," says another young recruit, also called Ahmed, 14. "The Israelis hate us deeply."

AUP would have us believe these kids say these things out of despair, but he’s at a camp being trained to kill Israelis. When I was his age, I was being taught to say the Boy Scout motto, "On my honor I will do my best…"

What do these kids do with these lessons?

Early last year three Palestinian boys, aged 15 and 16, were shot dead as they attempted to cut through the fence of a nearby Jewish settlement equipped with wire cutters and a knife. It was the PRC (Popular Resistance Committee )that had sent them.

Later on in the article:

One propaganda clip, repeatedly aired on the Palestinian Authority's TV channel, shows a young boy going off to meet his death in a "clash". In saccharine slo-mo, to the accompaniment of an aching patriotic song, the child writes his farewell letter to his parents and then gets shot in the act of throwing a stone.

Think about this. It gets shown on Palestinian-Arab television. We’re fed this myth that kids throwing stones at tanks is a spontaneous act of resistance born from anger and frustration, but it’s no more spontaneous than our own kids going to the mall and buying the latest fashions. It’s the product of advertising, complete with emotional patriotic music. They’re taught through television, peer pressure, and societal acceptance that this is how they should behave. Further, they’re taught that this action is supposed to draw fire and get them killed! He writes a farewell letter to his parents! This is from a source AUP provided, who’s ignoring facts?

Who made these commercials? Who is their target audience? What is being taught to these children?

And for good measure, let’s demonize the enemy some:

Other crudely dramatised clips falsely depict Israeli troops machinegunning soccer playing children, executing an old man - even blowing up a football. Many of the sporting teams and leagues in the West Bank are named after "terrorists," says Marcus. So are many Palestinian Authority schools.

Later in the article:

"They don't concentrate enough. At home they are bed-wetters. Gaza has the highest rate of bed-wetting in the world. They don't sleep well and they have nightmares. They have flashbacks of things they have seen.

No ◊◊◊◊! They are suffering! This is the result of the intifada. "Allahu Akbar! I just learned to throw a grenade! I’m 12 years old, and I have nightmares and wet the bed. But Mom and Dad say the poverty and fear is worth it all if only someday I can die while killing Jews! Certainly that’s preferable to some grown-ups sitting down at a table at Camp David and working out a deal that would give us a state, allow Dad to go back to his job in Israel and give us kids something to aspire to other than becoming a shahid!"

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Jim Bowen

Denny Crane

 

[Elind]

funeral

I watched most of the funeral of Arafat on C-Span. Didn't know they showed that kind of stuff.

Anyway, I mean the real funeral in Ramallah, not the fake one for kissass politicians in Cairo.

Those followers of Arafat really showed that they are ready for statehood didn't they (sarcastically)?

Aside from behaving like a typical gang, they probably killed as many of their own, by firing thousands of rounds into the air, as the Israelis do in a typical raid. They had to hit someone coming down; but hey; InshAllah.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: funeral

I watched most of the funeral of Arafat on C-Span. Didn't know they showed that kind of stuff. Anyway, I mean the real funeral in Ramallah, not the fake one for kissass politicians in Cairo. Those followers of Arafat really showed that they are ready for statehood didn't they (sarcastically)? Aside from behaving like a typical gang, they probably killed as many of their own, by firing thousands of rounds into the air, as the Israelis do in a typical raid. They had to hit someone coming down; but hey; InshAllah.

Car Blast Kills 2 in West Bank - Fri Nov 12, 7:31 AM ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A car exploded near the West Bank city of Ramallah on Friday, killing two people....which occurred as a helicopter carrying the body of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was landing at his Ramallah compound where he was to be buried, took place on a bridge and wounded several Palestinians.

"As a helicopter carrying the body of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was landing"....they couldn't stop for a second even as their leader was being layed to rest. They were on their way to deliver a "gift" to the Israeli people. And that is the piece of the puzzle - islamist terror groups - that escapes most Israeli detractors when it comes to solving the issue in middle east.

 

[davefoc]

ZN,
Do you see in the behavior that you cite in your posts the justification for Israel colonizing more of the Palestinian land?

How has Israel carving out little chunks of Palestinian land and populating them with some of its most zealously Zionist citizens made the situation better for Israelis or for Palestinians?

Is there any part of you that can see that Israeli actions have given the Palestinian extremists the ammunition they need to keep the Palestinian population fired up?

You dwell so much on the Israeli losses at the hands of the Palestinians but for a moment can you see it from the Palestinian side? You claim such great knowledge of the area because you have family that lives in Israel yet Palestinians also live in the area. Do you think you would have the views you have if you had lived as a Palestinian and had Palestinian relatives?

Palestinians know their ancesters were massacred by people fighting in the name of Israel, Palestinians know that their ancestors were physically forced from their land. Palestinians know that the leader of some of those massacres was buried with honor in Israel. Yet Israeli apologists for generations have told the world that the Palestinians just got up and left their land because some mythical arab leader told them to. Can you for a second put yourself in the place of a Palestinian and imagine how you would feel about those facts?

I suppose that you will read the above and be inclined to fire off some sort of a typical ZN littany of bad Palestinian leadership, evil Islamic extremists and the number of wars that have been won by the Israelis and lost by the Arabs. And if you are true to form nothing you say will be wrong (although you might throw in a mischaracterization of what I've said to add a little spice to the mix). But I wonder if there isn't something within you that can cause you to pause for a second and think about these issues not as an advocate but as a person seeking an objective truth.

 

[The Fool]

You know, the funny thing is that's exactly the answer I had in mind when I read the Fool's question. Then I scrolled down...and there it was!

As usual mycroft has no answer to a simple question. Once again you use your favourite drivel along the lines of Israel having "made mistakes" or being "not perfect" however, you are yet to be able to point out one specific action that you are critical of..... Is it that you simply don't realise you are an apologist?

 

[zenith-nadir]

ZN, Do you see in the behavior that you cite in your posts the justification for Israel colonizing more of the Palestinian land?

Nope. I had hoped that Sharon's government would freeze settlements. But then again I don't agree with everything any government does.

How has Israel carving out little chunks of Palestinian land and populating them with some of its most zealously Zionist citizens made the situation better for Israelis or for Palestinians?

It hasn't helped. But I understand it. It happened for two distinct reasons. A) To control land which provided a buffer from Israel's hostile neighbors and B) because prior to 1949 - the year the West Bank was renamed "The West Bank" by Jordan - it was called J-u-d-e-a and Samaria for some 3000 years. Ergo some really devout jews desire to live in their ancestrial homeland beside Palestinians.

Originally posted by davefoc
Is there any part of you that can see that Israeli actions have given the Palestinian extremists the ammunition they need to keep the Palestinian population fired up?

Well the Palestinian population was "fired up" before Israel in the days of WW1 and WW2 under Haj Amin el Husseini , they were "fired up" after WW2 and the creation of Israel under Gamal Abdel Nasser and they've been "fired up" since 1969 under Arafat. Which is sad, they've been used as pawns for nearly 100 years and look what it's done to their society.

Originally posted by davefoc
You dwell so much on the Israeli losses at the hands of the Palestinians but for a moment can you see it from the Palestinian side?

Absolutely. I've been to places like Hebron and Bethlehem.

Originally posted by davefoc
You claim such great knowledge of the area because you have family that lives in Israel yet Palestinians also live in the area. Do you think you would have the views you have if you had lived as a Palestinian and had Palestinian relatives?

A Palestinian has every right to hate the occupation. To hate settlements. To hate the security barrier. There isn't a person on earth who would like to live under occupation. The difference is that they are under occupation because of war. And not just one war, several Arab-led wars have put the Palestinians into the corner they are today. Had they - the Arab League - accepted A) jews and B) Israel, perhaps things would be different for Palestinians today. We'll never know...

Originally posted by davefoc
Palestinians know their ancesters were massacred by people fighting in the name of Israel, Palestinians know that their ancestors were physically forced from their land. Palestinians know that the leader of some of those massacres was buried with honor in Israel. Yet Israeli apologists for generations have told the world that the Palestinians just got up and left their land because some mythical arab leader told them to. Can you for a second put yourself in the place of a Palestinian and imagine how you would feel about those facts?

Exactly where are Arab leaders buried with honors Dave? Why with honors in Arab countries...anyhow....I call your war in 1948 and raise you Haj Amin el Husseini, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Yasser Arafat, the PLO, PLFP, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Black September, The Olympic Massacre, The Rome airport Massacre, The Maalot Massacre, Suicide bombing buses and pizzareias and wars in 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 and two intifadas....

Originally posted by davefoc
I suppose that you will read the above and be inclined to fire off some sort of a typical ZN littany of bad Palestinian leadership, evil Islamic extremists and the number of wars that have been won by the Israelis and lost by the Arabs.

Yup, because they are important to note. The Palestinians are by no means some innocent party. Ironically, the war in 1948 wasn't started by the Israelis it was started by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon on May 15 1948. That is why the Israelis attacked Arabs and Palestinians Dave, and that is why the Palestinians became displaced.

Originally posted by davefoc
And if you are true to form nothing you say will be wrong (although you might throw in a mischaracterization of what I've said to add a little spice to the mix). But I wonder if there isn't something within you that can cause you to pause for a second and think about these issues not as an advocate but as a person seeking an objective truth.

I know the truth. The Palestinians have been used as pawns by the Arab world in it's effort to destroy Israel. That is why Palestinians are kept like cattle in Arab countries without work or citizenship for the past 50 years. For the day they can all be returned to Palestine. That is what this is all about. I also know that Palestinians have never really had the choice - as a people - to make peace with Israel, for they have lived under mad islamist dictators for the past 100 years. I also know their society is so toxic from radical islamists that teenagers and mothers-of-two willingly suicide bomb Israelis while their parents cheer them on and dying as a martyr is more important than university.

It's a terrible situation. No doubt about it.

 

[Mycroft]

As usual mycroft has no answer to a simple question. Once again you use your favourite drivel along the lines of Israel having "made mistakes" or being "not perfect" however, you are yet to be able to point out one specific action that you are critical of..... Is it that you simply don't realise you are an apologist?

a·pol·o·gist: A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

Well, duh. In researching the issues, I have come to favor the Israeli position. In debating the Israeli/Palestinian-Arab conflict, my purpose is to present the counter-argument to a lot of non-sensical anti-Israeli propaganda. In that, I am indeed an apologist.

You are also an apologist. You, AUP, Demon, Davoc and Jim Bowen consistently argue in defense and justification of Palestinian-Arab violence. That makes you apologists.

I am aware of many issues on which Israel can be legitimately criticized. Like any country, including the United States or Australia, it’s an imperfect government run by imperfect people who come up with imperfect solutions to difficult problems. Like any democracy, their policies are influenced by groups of people who have very different points of view and very different approaches for solving these problems. As often happens in democracies, the compromises reached sometimes make little sense.

For the most part, these issues are never touched upon in these debates. I see no value in bringing them up.

Why?

Because Israeli/Palestinian-Arab debates here (and in most places) are conducted on a very low level. It is not a reasoned debate where specific issues are brought up and discussed rationally with different proposals suggested and discussed. Rather, every criticism of Israel is offered as a condemnation of their entire society and a denial of their right to self-defense and security. We don’t see this crowd coming to the argument saying, "I think the Camp David negotiations might have gone better had Israel compromised more on the water issue and the Palestinian-Arabs compromised on the Western Wall." Instead we see, "The Palestinian-Arabs were right to reject that Apartheid offer and here is an article from Gush Shalom proving it would have required them to sleep on mattresses made of barbed wire!"

If you want to elevate the debate then take some responsibility for your end.

 

[Elind]

ZN,
Do you see in the behavior that you cite in your posts the justification for Israel colonizing more of the Palestinian land?

How has Israel carving out little chunks of Palestinian land and populating them with some of its most zealously Zionist citizens made the situation better for Israelis or for Palestinians?

Is there any part of you that can see that Israeli actions have given the Palestinian extremists the ammunition they need to keep the Palestinian population fired up?

This wasn't addressed to me, except indirectly, but I'll answer you simply by saying that the "settlers" have my contempt also, but in a different degree.

The real issue is that the Palestinians don't need Israeli actions to excuse their killing. They have disregarded their children's futures for 50 years and, to repeat an old cliche, never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace because they value first of all their "land", that for the most part they never made use of themselves, or to a large degree were happy to work on for the Israelis, until the slob who just died decided to turn them loose again 4 years ago.

Every time I hear a Palestinian mother quoted about her pride in a child who just murdered many others, or one who brags about her duty to produce children so they can do the same I gag.

The jewish settlers are fanatics who hear a jackass god in their heads (or scum looking for cheap housing), and the Palestinians are a degenerate people who are incapable of creating a civil society.

Does that clarify your complaints about picking sides?

 

[demon]

That`s rich.
They have been under a brutal military occupation for the best part of 40 years with all that entails incase you haven`t noticed. I`d like to see how anyone would get on creating any sort of society under such conditions.

 

[The Fool]

a·pol·o·gist: A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

Well, duh. In researching the issues, I have come to favor the Israeli position. In debating the Israeli/Palestinian-Arab conflict, my purpose is to present the counter-argument to a lot of non-sensical anti-Israeli propaganda. In that, I am indeed an apologist.

Good to see we agree...


You are also an apologist. You, AUP, Demon, Davoc and Jim Bowen consistently argue in defense and justification of Palestinian-Arab violence. That makes you apologists.

Of course you can't find any examples of me ever defending or justifying Palestinian-Arab violence...why do you have to resort to lying when you run out of ideas?

I am aware of many issues on which Israel can be legitimately criticized.

but cannot bring yourself to name one. Just one.......come on....just one.

Like any country, including the United States or Australia, it’s an imperfect government run by imperfect people who come up with imperfect solutions to difficult problems. Like any democracy, their policies are influenced by groups of people who have very different points of view and very different approaches for solving these problems. As often happens in democracies, the compromises reached sometimes make little sense.

For the most part, these issues are never touched upon in these debates. I see no value in bringing them up.

pardon me while I have a good laugh....


Why?

Because Israeli/Palestinian-Arab debates here (and in most places) are conducted on a very low level. It is not a reasoned debate where specific issues are brought up and discussed rationally with different proposals suggested and discussed. Rather, every criticism of Israel is offered as a condemnation of their entire society and a denial of their right to self-defense and security.

if in doubt lie....."every critisism of Israel is offered as a condemnation of their entire society and a denial of their right to self defence and security"???? sigh.... are you serious? EVERY critisism of Israel????


We don’t see this crowd coming to the argument saying, "I think the Camp David negotiations might have gone better had Israel compromised more on the water issue and the Palestinian-Arabs compromised on the Western Wall." Instead we see, "The Palestinian-Arabs were right to reject that Apartheid offer and here is an article from Gush Shalom proving it would have required them to sleep on mattresses made of barbed wire!"

Good boy, at least you are not attributing your fabricated quotes to anyone specific anymore.

If you want to elevate the debate then take some responsibility for your end.
If you want to elevate this debate Mycroft
1.stop lying about what I say here.
2.stop dancing around and learn to critisize what is wrong instead of standing to attention and saluting any and all Israeli actions...
3. cease spamming the forum with your near daily pointless wack a loonie muslim threads.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Ah, something approaching a considered answer, Mycroft. I see that regarding the post traumatic stress stuff, you are still dodging the issue and trying to diminish its relevence to the Palestinians. As always you are willing to talk about the effects of things on Israelis, but have little, or no interest on its impact on the Palestinians. I found your stuff about Oslo to be entertaining, you could learn a lot about that from asking Demon - he knows a fair bit about Oslo and it is worth knowing.

Interesting stuff about the links that A_U_P has provided, but your consideration of them just shows that you are definitely only willing to talk about things that are either derogatory to the Palestinians or that show the Israelis in a good light, rather than the many things that he has demonstrated to the contrary that you tend to ignore. Normally, I would suspect that you are merely trying to hijack the debate from discussing the many woes done unto the Palestinians by the Israelis, but in your case, I'm more liable to assume that you do have an actual blindspot and can't see it.

Jim Bowen

 

[Mycroft]

If you want to elevate this debate Mycroft
1.stop lying about what I say here.
2.stop dancing around and learn to critisize what is wrong instead of standing to attention and saluting any and all Israeli actions...
3. cease spamming the forum with your near daily pointless wack a loonie muslim threads.

1) That's rich, comming from you.

2) You could stop dancing around and look at how the Arabs contribute to and perpetuate the problem.

3) I only draw attention to the "loonie muslims" who are interested in killing people.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Ah, something approaching a considered answer, Mycroft. I see that regarding the post traumatic stress stuff, you are still dodging the issue and trying to diminish its relevence to the Palestinians...

And I tried to diminish its relevance how exactly?

Never mind. Another empty post from Jim Bowen. Unable to make a case to support your point of view, you choose instead to vaguely criticize me for not "seeing both sides" while remaining blithely ignorant of the obvious fact that the same criticism applies to you.

Do get back to me when you have something of substance to say. I’ll be here.

Originally posted by Jim Bowen Jim Bowen

Denny Crane

 

[The Fool]

1) That's rich, comming from you.

Lol...Bite me....shall I add your latest claim to the list? The list of claims you cannot find a single example of?(that I defend and support violence).


2) You could stop dancing around and look at how the Arabs contribute to and perpetuate the problem.

I know how many Arabs contribute to this ongoing tragedy. Murder of civilians being one of the main ways. Corruption, racism and Religious fanaticism are among a number of other ways many of them contribute to the tragedy. I note with some amusement that you still dodge or ignore any requests to point out a single action of the Israeli regime you do not salute....Its becoming quite laughable...like your inability to use the "T" word about American behavior at Abu Graib. You are a caricature.

3) I only draw attention to the "loonie muslims" who are interested in killing people.
At least your wack a muslim threads give the bigots somewhere to play.

 

[demon]

Mycroft:
" I only draw attention to the "loonie muslims" who are interested in killing people."

Yeah, two headed babies are notorious for being interested in milk and cuddles...ooops, I meant "killing people".