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Waldorf school

Estellea, I suppose the fact that I have been living with a coloured for the past 18 years and we have two children which we plan on sending to a Waldorf school means nothing to you.
Why should it mean anything to me? You are the one that is opting to send your children to a school that has rather nefarious philosophical underpinnings. I would ascertain exactly how instructors were taught and what materials were used for their instruction.

Este
 
Why should it mean anything to me? You are the one that is opting to send your children to a school that has rather nefarious philosophical underpinnings. I would ascertain exactly how instructors were taught and what materials were used for their instruction.

Este

Exactly what I thought, you know nothing about me or my partner but you have an opinion about our ability to judge our choice in schools. In a country like South Africa where our relationship would have been illegal less than 20 years ago we are still a tiny minority and therefore are extremely aware of any racial tension in our environment. We stand out in public places and are used to constant stares.

You're claims about Steiner's racism are completely unfounded and based on second hand interpretations of ideas which Steiner never claimed were to be accepted blindly and out of context. In fact your misconstruing Steiner's ideas as apartheid beliefs is frankly insulting to me.
 
Exactly what I thought, you know nothing about me or my partner but you have an opinion about our ability to judge our choice in schools. In a country like South Africa where our relationship would have been illegal less than 20 years ago we are still a tiny minority and therefore are extremely aware of any racial tension in our environment. We stand out in public places and are used to constant stares.
Appeal to emotion and speaks nothing of understanding how your Waldorf instructors were taught themselves.
You're claims about Steiner's racism are completely unfounded and based on second hand interpretations of ideas which Steiner never claimed were to be accepted blindly and out of context. In fact your misconstruing Steiner's ideas as apartheid beliefs is frankly insulting to me.
No, my claims are based upon Steiner's own writings and you are speaking as an apologist for him and his vile racist swill. So much for being a sceptic.

Este
 
Oh please, Wiki can be useful for certain things but certainly not this. Did you read any of the Anthroposophy entry? It is a stunning example of denialism and double-speak. There is no denying what Steiner's philosophy was and they are still pretending or trying to lead you to believe that there are just some meanies out there that are attempting to misconstrue Steiner's clearly racist, apartheid beliefs.

Who's pretending, its called facts, something you seem to be thin on.

Here is a list of some required readings for Waldorf instructors and is by no means, exhaustive.
http://www.amazon.com/Teaching-History-Civilizations-Babylonia-Cultural/dp/B0017QPQF0

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/English/GA010_index.html

http://www.amazon.com/Health-Illness-German-Rudolf-Steiner/dp/0880100206

http://www.amazon.com/Theosophy-Introduction-Supersensible-Knowledge-Destination/dp/1564598063

Steiner’s HOW TO KNOW HIGHER WORLDS
http://tinyurl.com/yc9n9o9

Rudolf Steiner, FROM BEETROOT TO BUDDHISM
http://www.doyletics.com/arj/fbtbrvw.htm

Rudolf Steiner, NATURE SPIRITS
http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Spirits-Selected-Rudolf-Steiner/dp/1855840189

Rudolf Steiner, UNDERSTANDING THE HUMAN BEING
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Human-Being-Selected-Writings/dp/1855840057

Rudolf Steiner, ROSICRUCIAN WISDOM
http://www.amazon.com/Rosicrucian-Wisdom-Rudolf-Steiner/dp/1855840634

Anthroposophy" by Steiner
http://tinyurl.com/ydgrxty

The fact that instructors would read these and not walk away, at best, they are tacitly accepting Steiner's philosophy and are too morally impaired to object and at worst, are wholly embracing it. In either event, I wouldn't want them in charge of a large part of my children's lives.
Morally impaired! In which way?


Oh come now, you're cherry-picking. How about:
And, of course, you needn't be concerned if your child dies from disease, IT WAS MEANT TO BE:



http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=8043

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=2098

http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2008/04/austrian_anthroposophy_waldorf.php

http://jech.bmj.com/content/55/9/685.extract

http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/0804_MIR_Measles_Outbreak_in_Austria.pdf

Children that are exposed to a repertoire of antigens are less prone to allergic and autoimmune disease, e.g. the hygiene hypothesis, so this observation is not exclusive to anthroposophic communities.
And anti-vax is exclusive?


If you don't mind your children being taught by bigots or morally-devoid instructors, I guess so.
Examples please of this bigotry and moral-devoid behavior.

Me, there are other educational options that aren't steeped in controversy that will provide excellent opportunities for child development.
Good for you, good luck.

See my above list of teacher materials, at the very least, instructors don't see all students as equal depending upon their race. How can that not pervade the way they teach and interact with students even if the students themselves aren't being indoctrinated?

Este
What nonsense, you have provided absolutely no evidence of racism in Waldorf schools, only hearsay.
 
Appeal to emotion and speaks nothing of understanding how your Waldorf instructors were taught themselves.

Ah, so now you are an expert on what I know, very good:rolleyes:

No, my claims are based upon Steiner's own writings and you are speaking as an apologist for him and his vile racist swill. So much for being a sceptic.

Este

Something you have shown to have very little knowledge of and I am speaking as myself, you can take your labels elsewhere thanks.
 
Estellea,
Let me look through the stuff you posted, the measles info might be worth looking in to, but it deserves some time.

I'm still not sure you're making a great case for other issues by focussing on Steiner's beliefs.

In the US we hold the constitution in great esteem and value it's framers ideas immensely. Yet the constitution acknowledges and supports slavery, and many of the framers owned slaves themselves.

It is clearly seen as a motivating document behind all US government, including schools. I can't imagine a teacher being hired to cover any aspect of history without being very familiar with the document.

Yet we know in context that our modern teachers and public servants can read the documents in context and critically reject some of the founders' mistakes while embracing their positive contributions.

Your assertion that the crazy ideas of a founder somehow pollute all parts of a system they were involved with would condemn pretty much any major political, or educational system.
 
The real problem with Steiner is not that he had crazy ideas.
Its that some of them actually work.
 
Who's pretending, its called facts, something you seem to be thin on.
On your say so? I don't think so; I have provided numerous texts that instructors use for their training, numerous, direct translations of Steiner's works (and can provide many many more) and you? A single, biased, apologist website and your acceptance of Waldorf schooling. Thin gruel indeed.

Morally impaired! In which way?
Anyone who could read Steiner's philosophy, see it for what it is, and not object to it, or who embraces it, has a moral compass in dire need of overhaul.

And anti-vax is exclusive?
Could you elaborate please?
Examples please of this bigotry and moral-devoid behavior.

What nonsense, you have provided absolutely no evidence of racism in Waldorf schools, only hearsay.
Direct quotes from the man himself and texts used for instructors, that contain his philosophy are hardly hearsay.

Ah, so now you are an expert on what I know, very good:rolleyes:

Something you have shown to have very little knowledge of and I am speaking as myself, you can take your labels elsewhere thanks.
Considering you don't even know how your Waldorf instructors are taught and what materials are used, yes, you are relying upon a simple appeal to emotion. That and the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing lalalaIcan'thearyoulalala.

Estellea,

I see you belong to the Staudenmaier fan club.

Perhaps some Staudenmaier quotes for a laugh

http://www.danielhindes.com/Staudenmaier/quotes.php
Never even heard of that site; I go to the source and Steiner's bile is (sadly) easily obtained.

Este
 
On your say so? I don't think so; I have provided numerous texts that instructors use for their training, numerous, direct translations of Steiner's works (and can provide many many more) and you? A single, biased, apologist website and your acceptance of Waldorf schooling. Thin gruel indeed.
Simply listing links to some of Steiner's text does not cut it. You are the one making the claims of racism and you need to provide the actual quotes and explain what is racist in them.

More sites taking the racism accusations of detractors like yourself to pieces.

http://www.thebee.se/comments/PS/Staudenmaier.html
http://www.uncletaz.com/peterbull.html
http://www.uncletaz.com/cato/anthronazeng.html
http://www.uncletaz.com/waage/waagenglish1.html
http://www.uncletaz.com/waage/waagenglish2.html
http://www.uncletaz.com/henrywaldorf.html

The most interesting is a summary of a report commissioned by the Anthroposophical Society of the Netherlands.
http://www.uncletaz.com/steinerrace.html

Anyone who could read Steiner's philosophy, see it for what it is, and not object to it, or who embraces it, has a moral compass in dire need of overhaul.
Steiner had a PhD in philosophy. Have you read his PhD thesis on the philosophy of Fichte (Truth and Knowledge) and his follow up (Philosophy of Freedom)? This is Steiner's philosophy. Please go read it and then come back and tell us in detail were it is lacking in morality.

Could you elaborate please?
You are critical when it comes to correlations between allergies and waldorf schoolers, but selective when it comes to anti-vax supporters and waldorf parents.

Direct quotes from the man himself and texts used for instructors, that contain his philosophy are hardly hearsay.
None of the texts you quoted contain Steiner's Philosophy, try again.

Considering you don't even know how your Waldorf instructors are taught and what materials are used, yes, you are relying upon a simple appeal to emotion. That and the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing lalalaIcan'thearyoulalala.
It would seem my emotion is intellectually superior to your feeble attempt at an ad hom.

Never even heard of that site; I go to the source and Steiner's bile is (sadly) easily obtained.

Este
Its not a site, "Peter Staudenmaier ' is a person like you with a chip on his shoulder and the lack of honesty to admit it, but at least he makes the effort to try back up his claims with his own words.
 
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Estellea,
Let me look through the stuff you posted, the measles info might be worth looking in to, but it deserves some time.
Take your time. :)
I'm still not sure you're making a great case for other issues by focussing on Steiner's beliefs.
Steiner's beliefs is Anthroposophy and the foundation for Steiner/Waldorf instruction.

In the US we hold the constitution in great esteem and value it's framers ideas immensely. Yet the constitution acknowledges and supports slavery, and many of the framers owned slaves themselves.

It is clearly seen as a motivating document behind all US government, including schools. I can't imagine a teacher being hired to cover any aspect of history without being very familiar with the document.

Yet we know in context that our modern teachers and public servants can read the documents in context and critically reject some of the founders' mistakes while embracing their positive contributions.

Your assertion that the crazy ideas of a founder somehow pollute all parts of a system they were involved with would condemn pretty much any major political, or educational system.
Not a great analogy, in my opinion. The Thirteenth Amendment abolished slavery. So yes, the original doctrine is rife with issues that have become rather obsolete, morally and ethically repugnant and just plain irrelevant. BUT, the anticipation of changes were built in. That is not the case with Anthroposophy, which is nothing more than a religion actually. Until Anthrosophical organisations admit to the silly occultism and racist underpinnings of their religion/philosophy and make efforts to remove them from Steiner schools, then they are what they are. Although once they remove those, there won't be a whole lot left.

Este
 
Until Anthrosophical organisations admit to the silly occultism and racist underpinnings of their religion/philosophy and make efforts to remove them from Steiner schools, then they are what they are. Although once they remove those, there won't be a whole lot left.

Este

You've yet to show that any racist underpinning have made it into the schools, which is necessary before you argue they should be taken out.

So far the only link I've seen is Staudenmaier, and !Kaggen's taken that apart.
 
T
Not a great analogy, in my opinion. The Thirteenth Amendment abolished slavery. So yes, the original doctrine is rife with issues that have become rather obsolete, morally and ethically repugnant and just plain irrelevant. BUT, the anticipation of changes were built in. That is not the case with Anthroposophy, which is nothing more than a religion actually. Until Anthrosophical organisations admit to the silly occultism and racist underpinnings of their religion/philosophy and make efforts to remove them from Steiner schools, then they are what they are. Although once they remove those, there won't be a whole lot left.

Este

I think it is a great analogy and I think your argument has some truth in it because of that.
One of the biggest gripes, yes I have them, with anthroposophists is that they are too often superstitious and have made Steiner into an idol. These anthroposophists make his ideas into a religion to be blindly followed.
They tend to concentrate on the crazy ideas of Steiner and ignore the more interesting and useful ideas such as his actual philosophical works and editorial interpretations of Goethe. Even Steiner was disappointed in his day with such anthroposophists and challenged them to think and test everything he said for themselves. He consciously made a point of actively putting his ideas into practical reality to emphasis this so as to avoid the type of blind following that is common with religious leaders who rely on the psychology of superstition. Steiner was also very much aware of the success of science and made it clear that any of his ideas were worthless unless tested rigorously using the tools of science. He also made it clear that his ideas were not to be regarded as the idol of a few individuals but were to be either useful for all humanity or useless. If anything anthroposophists have not done Steiner any favors by idolizing his ideas and not testing them and throwing out those ideas that are wanting. So I agree 100% with your argument that a system which is not up for testing its ideas and dismissing the irrelevant ones is simply a superstitious religion. But I disagree that there will be nothing left and suggest the reason you feel this way is the same reason anthroposophist idolize Steiner's ideas, ignorance.
 
i have heard alot things brought up against steiner, but racism was never one of it.
and especially judged on the people i know, that went to a steiner school, he was sure not racist, or those school do a poor job in making racists. all of them are totaly left, some even to my left.
 
A close friend of mine has plans to send his daughter to a Waldorf high school next year. This is clearly a woo school. I wouldn't care if it wasn't so expensive that it will cut into the money she would have for college.

It will be an uphill battle but any ammunition you can provide me with will help.

I agree. Both my (younger) brothers were sent to a Waldorf school by my new-age woo-woo mother.

The good news is they may still turn out OK. One of the two did (he's also a very hard-core true-believer Christian, but he has a good job and a good marriage and family and seems to be very happy).

Evidences that Rudolf Steiner was a woo-woo
 
I agree. Both my (younger) brothers were sent to a Waldorf school by my new-age woo-woo mother.

The good news is they may still turn out OK. One of the two did (he's also a very hard-core true-believer Christian, but he has a good job and a good marriage and family and seems to be very happy).

Evidences that Rudolf Steiner was a woo-woo

from your link
To Steiner's credit, he always insisted that his students test everything he said and not take it at face value; but to his detriment, he did no testing of his own, but rather described the methods to be followed based only on his own inspiration.

Steiner did not even coin the term Biodynamics .
Steiner gave a course in agriculture after requests from farmers. After the course he asked his closest associates to go and scientifically test his ideas, a biochemist Dr Ehrenfried Pfeiffer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenfried_Pfeiffer) and a physician Dr. Eugen Kilisko and his wife Lili Kolisko(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Kolisko).
They developed tests such as "sensitive crystallization" (http://science.goetheanum.org/fileadmin/nws/text-downloads/flyerBWeng.pdf) and "capillary dynamolysis" (http://www.biodynamisk-forskning.dk/artikler/SBposterOdense06JK.pdf) to analyze Steiners ideas. Recently another method "the drop picture method" (http://www.stroemungsinstitut.de/prospect.htm#04) has been developed as well.

Like I said in my previous post what anthroposophists follow blindly and what Steiner himself insisted on is too often in discord.
 
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A close friend of mine has plans to send his daughter to a Waldorf high school next year. This is clearly a woo school. I wouldn't care if it wasn't so expensive that it will cut into the money she would have for college.

Don't worry about that.
With a basic education from the Waldorf school system, she will probably not get into college anyway.
 
OK, having read more of this thread, I should add that I speak from the Dutch experience.

The Waldorf school I went to was somewhat "fundamentalist", Rudolf Steiner could not be wrong and we should stick to his ideas.

I hate their system of teaching. I hate woo and I have been exposed to a whole lot of woo during my time there.

I hate Eurithmics. The Waldorf answer to yoga that I wasted three hours of my life on for many years.

I hated that they would let kids move on to the next class even if they couldn't keep up.

I hated their dogma on art which is all about round shapes, soft edges and pastel colors.
I liked drawing in black ink and I wanted to be a comic book artist.

Comic books, movies, computers and all technology invented after 1930 were frowned upon.

My parents gave me a Superman T-shirt when I was eight (the movie had just come out). The teacher told me to wear it inside-out when in school.

Pastel colors make my blood boil.

I could go on, but you get the picture.
 
OK, having read more of this thread, I should add that I speak from the Dutch experience.

The Waldorf school I went to was somewhat "fundamentalist", Rudolf Steiner could not be wrong and we should stick to his ideas.

I hate their system of teaching. I hate woo and I have been exposed to a whole lot of woo during my time there.

I hate Eurithmics. The Waldorf answer to yoga that I wasted three hours of my life on for many years.

I hated that they would let kids move on to the next class even if they couldn't keep up.

I hated their dogma on art which is all about round shapes, soft edges and pastel colors.
I liked drawing in black ink and I wanted to be a comic book artist.

Comic books, movies, computers and all technology invented after 1930 were frowned upon.

My parents gave me a Superman T-shirt when I was eight (the movie had just come out). The teacher told me to wear it inside-out when in school.

Pastel colors make my blood boil.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Alas, if only you could have gone to a different sort of school - it's well known that each and every pupil of any and all other school systems are comprehensively and wholeheartedly satisfied with all aspects of their education and environment.
 
Alas, if only you could have gone to a different sort of school - it's well known that each and every pupil of any and all other school systems are comprehensively and wholeheartedly satisfied with all aspects of their education and environment.

You probably have a point.

Still, I had to go to a private school before I could hook up with the normal school system again.
 

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