Waldorf school

[Senex]

A close friend of mine has plans to send his daughter to a Waldorf high school next year. This is clearly a woo school. I wouldn't care if it wasn't so expensive that it will cut into the money she would have for college.

It will be an uphill battle but any ammunition you can provide me with will help.

 

[!Kaggen]

This seems like a good study to educate yourself about Waldorf schools

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/research/data/uploadfiles/RR645.pdf

 

[!Kaggen]

Perhaps your friends daughter will have less allergies too

Background: The anthroposophic lifestyle has several features of interest in relation to allergy: for example, a restrictive use of antibiotics and certain vaccinations. In a previous Swedish study, Steiner school children (who often have an anthroposophic lifestyle) showed a reduced risk of atopy, but specific protective factors could not be identified. Objective: To investigate factors that may contribute to the lower risk of allergy among Steiner school children. Methods: Cross-sectional multicenter study including 6630 children age 5 to 13 years (4606 from Steiner schools and 2024 from reference schools) in 5 European countries. Results: The prevalence of several studied outcomes was lower in Steiner school children than in the reference group. Overall, there were statistically significant reduced risks for rhinoconjunctivitis, atopic eczema, and atopic sensitization (allergen-specific IgE ≥0.35 kU/L), with some heterogeneity between the countries. Focusing on doctor-diagnosed disease, use of antibiotics during first year of life was associated with increased risks of rhinoconjunctivitis (odds ratio [OR], 1.97; 95% CI, 1.26-3.08), asthma (OR, 2.79; 95% CI, 2.03-3.83), and atopic eczema (OR, 1.63; 95% CI, 1.22-2.17). Early use of antipyretics was related to an increased risk of asthma (OR, 1.54; 95% CI, 1.11-2.13) and atopic eczema (OR, 1.32; 95% CI, 1.02-1.71). Children having received measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination showed an increased risk of rhinoconjunctivitis, whereas measles infection was associated with a lower risk of IgE-mediated eczema. Conclusion: Certain features of the anthroposophic lifestyle, such as restrictive use of antibiotics and antipyretics, are associated with a reduced risk of allergic disease in children.

from
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17433217

Background: 

Growing up on a farm and an anthroposophic lifestyle are associated with a lower prevalence of allergic diseases in childhood. It has been suggested that the enhanced exposure to endotoxin is an important protective factor of farm environments. Little is known about exposure to other microbial components on farms and exposure in anthroposophic families. Objective: 

To assess the levels and determinants of bacterial endotoxin, mould β(1,3)-glucans and fungal extracellular polysaccharides (EPS) in house dust of farm children, Steiner school children and reference children. Methods: 

Mattress and living room dust was collected in the homes of 229 farm children, 122 Steiner children and 60 and 67 of their respective reference children in five European countries. Stable dust was collected as well. All samples were analysed in one central laboratory. Determinants were assessed by questionnaire. Results: 

Levels of endotoxin, EPS and glucans per gram of house dust in farm homes were 1.2- to 3.2-fold higher than levels in reference homes. For Steiner children, 1.1- to 1.6-fold higher levels were observed compared with their reference children. These differences were consistently found across countries, although mean levels varied considerably. Differences between groups and between countries were also significant after adjustment for home and family characteristics. Conclusion: 

Farm children are not only consistently exposed to higher levels of endotoxin, but also to higher levels of mould components. Steiner school children may also be exposed to higher levels of microbial agents, but differences with reference children are much less pronounced than for farm children. Further analyses are, however, required to assess the association between exposure to these various microbial agents and allergic and airway diseases in the PARSIFAL population.

from
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/all/2005/00000060/00000005/art00007

BACKGROUND: Increased prevalence of atopic disorders in children may be associated with changes in types of childhood infections, vaccination programmes, and intestinal microflora. People who follow an anthroposophic way of life use antibiotics restrictively, have few vaccinations, and their diet usually contains live lactobacilli, which may affect the intestinal microflora. We aimed to study the prevalence of atopy in children from anthroposophic families and the influence of an anthroposophic lifestyle on atopy prevalence. METHODS: In a cross-sectional study, 295 children aged 5-13 years at two anthroposophic (Steiner) schools near Stockholm, Sweden, were compared with 380 children of the same age at two neighbouring schools in terms of history of atopic and infectious diseases, use of antibiotics and vaccinations, and social and environmental variables. Skin-prick tests were done for 13 common allergens, and we took blood samples from children and their parents for analysis of allergen-specific serum IgE-antibodies. FINDINGS: At the Steiner schools, 52% of the children had had antibiotics in the past, compared with 90% in the control schools. 18% and 93% of children, respectively, had had combined immunisation against measles, mumps, and rubella, and 61% of the children at the Steiner schools had had measles. Fermented vegetables, containing live lactobacilli, were consumed by 63% of the children at Steiner schools, compared with 4.5% at the control schools. Skin-prick tests and blood tests showed that the children from Steiner schools had lower prevalence of atopy than controls (odds ratio 0.62 [95% CI 0.43-0.91]). There was an inverse relation between the number of characteristic features of an anthroposophic lifestyle and risk of atopy (p for trend=0.01). INTERPRETATION: Prevalence of atopy is lower in children from anthroposophic families than in children from other families. Lifestyle factors associated with anthroposophy may lessen the risk of atopy in childhood.

from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10232315?dopt=Abstract

 

[Cavemonster]

There's definitely a little woo mixed in there, but mostly Waldorf is a very arts oriented program with a lot of room for self direction as well as individual attention, a good teacher/student ratio.

As an approach, it's no less evidence based than the current test centered NCLB program that rules the public schools.

Anecdotally, I can say that the few friends I met who had gone to Waldorf schools went on to Ivy League universities and a fairly successful, happy lives, but that could just as easily be an effect of being able to afford going there. I can say that they all look on it positively and as one reason for their current success.

As for cost, it's in line with other private schools, and generally offers financial aid.

 

[Senex]

It still seems woo to me.

My friend makes lots of money he is peeing into this school.

 

[Cavemonster]

I didn't envision the only "help" was woo.

Would you want to join a high school that only had had 7 students?

My friend needs guidance -- evidently not what I get here.

So guidance is second guessing his decision for his kid's education?

If you have a good reason to do that already then you must have the information that shows it's a bad decision, not just a vague notion it involves "woo". Until you have enough specific evidence of problems with this school you have absolutely no business attacking your friend's decision.

 

[HawaiiBigSis]

I can't speak from experience, since my kids didn't go to a Waldorf school, but regarding the class size: my son was the only child in his graduating class, and he seems to have survived the experience.

The girls next door went to Waldorf (the one here only goes through middle school though), and they enjoyed it. It was an active school, with lots of (non-woo) stuff for the kids to do, and plenty parental involvement, which allows the parents to counter-teach anything with which they disagree.

In today's economy, with class sizes huge and rising, any opportunity for a smaller class size is not to be scorned.

 

[Loss Leader]

You'll hardly find more involved parents than at our local Waldorf school. And the kids all go on to college - I think they are at 100%.

 

[jiggeryqua]

All three of my children attented a Waldorf school (at that time, our local school had a negotiated fee and accepted payments-in-kind such as cleaning services and other support).

There is a lot of weird woo behind it, but little of it reaches the kids directly - and they're generally bright and enquiring minds, they don't swallow the woo whole...indeed, they question it, dismiss it and grumble about being at school just like regular kids.

I particularly like the history of myth as taught in the Waldorf curriculum. It follows human development chronologically. I'm less impressed with the art education, in that it doesn't 'feel right' to start by painting an entire page one colour, then eventually graduating to two colours and then the border between them (my youngest daughter didn't appreciate it either). On the other hand I am impressed with the ease and fluency of the art produced by Steiner pupils, including my own children. My son didn't appreciate being told he'd learnt to read too early, but he thrived at the school all the same.

I've met ex-Waldorf pupils of all ages and backgrounds all over the UK, and found them without execption to be bright, interested and interesting. They rarely have conventionally succesful careers, but they are disproportionately among my favourite people. Steiner teachers and Steiner parents on the other hand...

 

[themusicteacher]

There's definitely a little woo mixed in there, but mostly Waldorf is a very arts oriented program with a lot of room for self direction as well as individual attention, a good teacher/student ratio.

As an approach, it's no less evidence based than the current test centered NCLB program that rules the public schools.

Anecdotally, I can say that the few friends I met who had gone to Waldorf schools went on to Ivy League universities and a fairly successful, happy lives, but that could just as easily be an effect of being able to afford going there. I can say that they all look on it positively and as one reason for their current success.

As for cost, it's in line with other private schools, and generally offers financial aid.

I would say NCLB actually flies in the face of the evidence so Waldorf's are probably more evidence-based than NCLB.

I will always contend that not everyone belongs in a "traditional" school setting (big buildings, big classes, too many distractions and/or not enough challenges). I would say that the Waldorf movement is so small (and insular) that it is difficult to say that, on a large scale, it is a "successful" approach but most of the kids that go all the way through seem to get a lot out of it. However, if a parent has the wherewithall to send their kid into a program like this, they are probably very involved and supportive.

 

[Senex]

There are so few Waldorf students that I have to back off so as not to expose my buddy.

However, Waldorf is a woo school and my inability to help him save money by sending his daughter to public school is lost by the woos who hang out at the education section of this forum.

 

[quixotecoyote]

<Error! Uncritical agreement not found.>

<Engage emergency exit procedure.>

<Systems check: Preconceived notions intact>

 

[sphenisc]

Woo? On the contrary, Waldorf was reknown for expressing his critical thinking.


Particularly of Kermit and Miss Piggy.

 

[iknownothing]

I'm not clear why you feel you need to do something about the decision your friend has made for his daughter, unless you have some closer connection you haven't mentioned.

If it's a school they are both happy with, then who's to say it's not money well spent? Sounds like his/their decision.

Dismissing people who aren't telling you what you want to hear with vague "woo" accusations isn't making your point any clearer.

 

[Loss Leader]

However, Waldorf is a woo school and my inability to help him save money by sending his daughter to public school is lost by the woos who hang out at the education section of this forum.

I know how you feel, Senex. Everyone who disagrees with me deserves scorn, too.

 

[Senex]

I know how you feel, Senex. Everyone who disagrees with me deserves scorn, too.

Bulloney.

I dance around this issue with my buddy because that's what buddies do. None of you are my buddy. I can call a woo a woo here. Waldorf is woo. Look it up in wikipedea.

 

[Cavemonster]

Bulloney.

I dance around this issue with my buddy because that's what buddies do. None of you are my buddy. I can call a woo a woo here. Waldorf is woo. Look it up in wikipedea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education#Studies
Every study conducted, across several continents showed highly positive effects of the Waldorf method vs. more traditional approaches.

I guess you're free to be repulsed by anything touching on woo-ish silliness. As a utilitarian, I measure what something actually delivers.

The system truly is founded on some silly beliefs, but the claim that it's highly effective as an education institution is borne out by research. Since the spiritual claims that you have issue with are not pressed on the students, or even directly discernable in the day-to-day classroom experience, I have to wonder what significance the label of "woo" has to you in this instance.

Dr. Bronner's soap is also rooted in a lot of crazy BS. I use it because I really like the smell and the tingly feeling. There is no horrible taint of association with woo, it's just a pejorative shorthand for a certain type of wrong, and everyone is wrong about some things. The question to ask is whether each thing is right or wrong in the ways that matter.

You may enjoy this story about distinguishing real effects from silly belief systems. http://www.jhuger.com/phandpr

 

[Loss Leader]

I know how you feel, Senex. Everyone who disagrees with me deserves scorn, too.

Bulloney. I dance around this issue with my buddy because that's what buddies do. None of you are my buddy. I can call a woo a woo here. Waldorf is woo. Look it up in wikipedea.

But that's not all of what you said, Senex. You didn't just say you thought the Waldorf method was woo. You made a comment about the people responding to your thread:

my inability to help him save money by sending his daughter to public school is lost by the woos who hang out at the education section of this forum.

So, you are the one who attacked the people here as "woo." You attacked the Waldorf schools, sure, but you went on to complain about those who hang out at the education section.

What evidence do you have that people who hang out at the education section are woos other than the fact that nobody has run forward to agree with you?

And this is ignoring the fact that you have somehow formed the opinion that it's your job to count your friend's money.

 

[Senex]

Perhaps your friends daughter will have less allergies too

Bulloney.

I spend quality time with my buddy and his children. Every year for the last seven we have gone back packing in the summer. Last year we went to Baxter State Park and I told him his children were putting me at risk by not being vaccinated. Mumps, wooping cough, scarlet fever, whatever you can be vaccinated against I want your children to be vaccinated against.

Waldorf is woo.

 

[jiggeryqua]

My three children, as mentioned above, all attended a Waldorf Steiner school. All were vaccinated against everything you can be vaccinated against. I shouldn't be at all surprised if some Steiner parents don't vaccinate their children - but it's not part of the education system that the pupils are not to be vacinated, it's not taught to the children and I don't believe it's advocated by Steiner or any leading light in Waldorf circles. I do believe anti-vaccination parents exist in state schools (your 'public schools'), public schools ('private' schools) and home education.

I'll grant that I probably found a higher concentration of homeopaths, reflexologists, crystal and colour therapists among Steiner parents (but note that most Steiner parents were not Steiner educated). There is definitely woo in anthroposophy and some decidedly bizarre ideas underpinning Waldorf education...just as there are some disputable claims behind church of england schools - but parents often prefer the results of those schools to the state system (which is equally prone to daft ideas, propogated by ambitious suits, with no history of succesful application, which will be changed for the flavour-of-the-month ideas generated by the next arse in their office chair).