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Wages For Housework

Donal said:
thepresitge is right. We should skip the pretense and filtering and just go with a UBI
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Don't try to put me on your hobby horse. My position is equal pay for equal work, let the market set the wages, and do whatever housekeeping tickles your fancy in your spare time like an adult human being.
 
theprestige said:
Nowadays, we've elected to solve the problem by recognizing women as equal citizens, who can pick and choose their own careers, and are no more deserving of a housework wage than bachelors are. At this point, wages for housework would be regressive and nonsensical.
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Speaking as a life-long bachelor, I would like to point out that most women would very much be more deserving of a housework wage than I am. The state of this place.

The reality is that housework/childrearing still very much falls disproportionately on women, at least in the US. Maybe Sweden has sorted this out, but we haven't.

Donal said:
thepresitge is right. We should skip the pretense and filtering and just go with a UBI
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UBI is fundamentally about a different question--ensuring that people have some bare minimum income as a social welfare measure. It's income irrespective of productivity. The problem with housework/childrearing is that it's uncompensated productive labor. We can imagine a world where there was no market for, say, medical practitioners (but people nevertheless felt compelled to ply that trade out of their own sense of obligation to others) to illustrate the problem here. UBI would hardly be a solution there, either--the problem would be that people were simply not being fairly compensated for critical work.
 
mumblethrax said:
Speaking as a life-long bachelor, I would like to point out that most women would very much be more deserving of a housework wage than I am. The state of this place.

The reality is that housework/childrearing still very much falls disproportionately on women, at least in the US. Maybe Sweden has sorted this out, but we haven't.



UBI is fundamentally about a different question--ensuring that people have some bare minimum income as a social welfare measure. It's income irrespective of productivity. The problem with housework/childrearing is that it's uncompensated productive labor. We can imagine a world where there was no market for, say, medical practitioners (but people nevertheless felt compelled to ply that trade out of their own sense of obligation to others) to illustrate the problem here. UBI would hardly be a solution there, either--the problem would be that people were simply not being fairly compensated for critical work.
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Housework is absolutely compensated productive labor. The result is its own compensation. You choose what to do with your life and your time.

The whole reason we get paid for the work we do for other people is that it takes away from the time and resources we have to do work for ourselves. Housework and child-rearing is work we do for ourselves.

We don't pay small business owners a stipend for running a small business. They work for themselves, and compensate themselves. If a woman feels she isn't getting a fair deal on her partnership, then she should either renegotiate the terms with her partner, or dissolve the partnership. She shouldn't go crying to the state for an allowance because her partner expects her to do his laundry.
 
theprestige said:
Housework is absolutely compensated productive labor. The result is its own compensation. You choose what to do with your life and your time.
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That's sophistical. You can't pay the bills with life satisfaction.
theprestige said:
The whole reason we get paid for the work we do for other people is that it takes away from the time and resources we have to do work for ourselves.
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No it isn't. We get paid because there's demand for our labor. Market economies don't care about the fact that you're sacrificing your time, and also don't care about how hard or much you work, but instead about how productive you are.
theprestige said:
We don't pay small business owners a stipend for running a small business. They work for themselves, and compensate themselves.
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Well...in fact, we do. There are lots of tax credits, grants, low-interest/collateral loans and subsidies available for small business owners, which are meant to incentivize entrepreneurship, because it's seen as socially valuable.
theprestige said:
If a woman feels she isn't getting a fair deal on her partnership, then she should either renegotiate the terms with her partner, or dissolve the partnership. She shouldn't go crying to the state for an allowance because her partner expects her to do his laundry.
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This 'should' isn't really grounded in anything, and ignores cases like single custodial parents (overwhelmingly women) who do this work outside of relationships with partners.
 
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theprestige said:
To make sure it's being done by a woman, you mean.
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Hmm? No.

I just don't think we should be paying for work that isn't getting done. So who's the inspector and what are the standards? I don't care who's doing it. I'm just demanding accountability... and suggesting such a thing would be a bit difficult.
 
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Manopolus said:
Who's the boss?

I mean, like, who inspects the work to make sure it's getting done.
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Most of us would probably have a low tolerance for the kind of intervention that would be necessary to ensure that this work is getting done.

But when it comes to childrearing, there's already a fair amount of expectation of intervention there. If you're neglecting that work, chances are good that you'll get a visit from the state in any case. "Hey, you're not actually taking good care of these kids...if you don't remediate the situation you're at risk of losing your Childrearing Dividend, and after that you might lose custody." Doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me.
 
mumblethrax said:
But when it comes to childrearing, there's already a fair amount of expectation of intervention there. If you're neglecting that work, chances are good that you'll get a visit from the state in any case. "Hey, you're not actually taking good care of these kids...if you don't remediate the situation you're at risk of losing your Childrearing Dividend, and after that you might lose custody." Doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me.
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Well, yes... but we aren't paying them currently for that (unless you count welfare, but I wouldn't). An actual wage requires a higher degree of accountability than merely arresting you if you're caught committing crimes.
 
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mumblethrax said:
Most of us would probably have a low tolerance for the kind of intervention that would be necessary to ensure that this work is getting done.

But when it comes to childrearing, there's already a fair amount of expectation of intervention there. If you're neglecting that work, chances are good that you'll get a visit from the state in any case. "Hey, you're not actually taking good care of these kids...if you don't remediate the situation you're at risk of losing your Childrearing Dividend, and after that you might lose custody." Doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me.
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Most of us would have the same low tolerance for such intervention in child rearing.

The state isn't auditing parents to make sure they're doing a good job. The state only steps in when outward signs indicate to others that the person is harming other people.
 
theprestige said:
Don't try to put me on your hobby horse. My position is equal pay for equal work, let the market set the wages, and do whatever housekeeping tickles your fancy in your spare time like an adult human being.
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The same market that set Kim Kardashian's value higher than any teacher, nurse, or firefighter?

Perhaps we stop throwing our hands up and saying "Welp, our fundamentally broken system says this is right."
 
Manopolus said:
Well, yes... but we aren't paying them currently for that (unless you count welfare, but I wouldn't). An actual wage requires a higher degree of accountability than merely arresting you if you commit crimes.
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Well of course we aren't--it's a proposal, not the status quo.

And I don't think it's the case that this needs to take the form of an actual wage. I mean, I don't get paid a wage for my job. A childrearing credit would pretty much do the trick.

theprestige said:
Most of us would have the same low tolerance for such intervention in child rearing.

The state isn't auditing parents to make sure they're doing a good job. The state only steps in when outward signs indicate to others that the person is harming other people.
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Well, no, I think most of us have a much higher tolerance for intervention in that case, which is why it's easier to intervene if someone is neglecting their children than it is if they're neglecting themselves.

And child neglect is all you really need to justify intervention, not evidence of harm. Neglect is definitionally inadequate care, so that should pretty much do the trick, too.
 
theprestige said:
The state isn't auditing parents to make sure they're doing a good job. The state only steps in when outward signs indicate to others that the person is harming other people.
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Which is the same way with housework: the state only steps in when a lack of good housekeeping summons hordes of vermin, or billows of noxious gases, or blights property values. Neglect taking out the trash long enough and somebody will step in eventually.
 
theprestige said:
I've been in the military. After basic training, it's not as much like that as you think. And soldiers are very much expected to clean up after themselves and keep their quarters neat and tidy. They're also expected to do their own laundry. All the usual housework. And not on any schedule, either, but in their free time between other obligations. Just like any other responsible adult.

About the most significant factor, which you overlooked, is that their quarters are subject to inspection, and they face real consequences if they shirk. Which, there should be something similar in a loving partnership between responsible adults, but a lot of times there isn't. That's not because men are incapable of doing their own housework, though.
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Soldiers are also paid to do their duties.

Stay-at-home parents deserve their own income, whether that's from the state or their partner, and payment should depend on their assets and family income.
 
I'm always in mixed minds about the 'housework' question.

I've been doing my own, and others' housework, since I was a kiddie-wink.
(Side effect of a single father household, with a father who was out of the house 12 hours per day.)
(Even did some commercial house cleaning as a teenager, when I was struggling to find work.)

I saw how my exes lived before and after me, and it wasn't pretty.

And, I've had that weird experience where you sit and listen to your partner receiving complements for the meal you just cooked and the clean and tidy home that you maintain...

(Still a tad cranky about an ex deciding that she needed to empty her sewing bag out and sort all the scraps of fabric, in the lounge room, half an hour before guests arrived, while I was cooking the meal. Talk about 'not helping'...)

Having said all of that. The idea that I would be paid for keeping my home clean and tidy, seems ridiculous.

I fully agree with the others here, who have stated that paying someone, to receive the benefit of their own efforts, is weird.

Can I get paid for showering and brushing my teeth too?
 
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