voting fraud in Florida- already!

[BPSCG]

Many of the early ballots have come in with the canidates name circled. It's going to be a long election night.

Anyone who thinks he's designed an idiot-proof system has obviously underestimated his idiots.

 

[Chaos]

For starts, your Social Security card says on it, "For Social Security and Tax Purposes Only - Not For Identification."

Second - someone stole my wallet.

I note an interesting inconsistency. The Dems are the party of Big Government that wants National This and National That, all of which would obviously require Uncle Sam to know everything about you, including who you are and what kind of catsup you had on your hamburger at lunch. Remember HillaryCare, and President Clinton holding up a sample HillaryCare Health Card that all Americans would have?

But the minute the Republicans start saying people should be required to present ID when they vote, the Dems get all huffy about how this somehow disenfranchises and intimidates people.

Why is that, I (don't) wonder...?

In Germany it is like this: about a week or so before each election (national, state, county and town level) I am sent a voter ID that I have to show when I go voting; it also says where exactly I´m supposed to show up to vote. At the polling station, they have a list of everybody who is supposed to vote at that station.

It´s a foolproof system that makes sure everybody votes only once, and that prevents everybody from trying to exclude anyone from voting. Which is more than can be said about voter registration, American style.

 

[BPSCG]

It´s a foolproof system

See my post immediately preceding yours.

Which is more than can be said about voter registration, American style.

A bunch of chimpanzees hurling feces at the voter rolls would be an improvement on the American registration system.

Seriously, let me ask you: Do German voters ever claim they are being intimidated when asked to present identification at the polls? Does anyone ever claim "disenfranchisement" because they must show identification before voting?

 

[Chaos]

See my post immediately preceding yours.

IIRC 95+ percent of all votes are valid, and those who are invalid have mostly been purposefully invalidated - like protest voters scrawling "none of the above" below the list of candidates. (Now that´s one thing voting machines would stop... )

A bunch of chimpanzees hurling feces at the voter rolls would be an improvement on the American registration system.

Amazing. We agree. That needs to be celebrated. *pops the champagne*

Seriously, let me ask you: Do German voters ever claim they are being intimidated when asked to present identification at the polls? Does anyone ever claim "disenfranchisement" because they must show identification before voting?

No, to both questions. Not that I´d ever heard of it, at least - and my former GF did volunteer work at polling stations for year, and she told me a lot about that, so I guess she´d have mentioned it if such a thing happened.

 

[TragicMonkey]

A bunch of chimpanzees hurling feces at the voter rolls would be an improvement on the American registration system.

So, you've been looking at the voting reforms in Florida. Those chimps are highly trained, and are completely impartial. They'll disenfranchise people from both parties with utter neutrality. To ensure their honesty, the public are invited to examine the registration rolls afterward....although they might not want to.

 

[crimresearch]

In Germany it is like this: about a week or so before each election (national, state, county and town level) I am sent a voter ID that I have to show when I go voting; it also says where exactly I´m supposed to show up to vote. At the polling station, they have a list of everybody who is supposed to vote at that station.

It´s a foolproof system that makes sure everybody votes only once, and that prevents everybody from trying to exclude anyone from voting. Which is more than can be said about voter registration, American style.

Pretty much the same process as voter registration here, with the exception of the party primaries already mentioned.

The process is intended to keep voters from voting twice.

I do find it interesting that so many people appear to have a problem with that concept.

 

[BPSCG]

The process is intended to keep voters from voting twice.

I do find it interesting that so many people appear to have a problem with that concept.

I have a voter registration card. When I go to my polling place, I'm asked to provide name and address. They look me up on the register, give me a ticket to take to the voting booth, and cross my name off.

They do not ask to see my card.

It would be a simple matter for me to come back an hour or so later and claim to be one of my neighbors. What point is a voter registration card if you're not required to produce it or any other form of identification?

 

[crimresearch]

I'm guessing that the questions would arise when you tried to vote under a name that had already been crossed off.

 

[BPSCG]

I'm guessing that the questions would arise when you tried to vote under a name that had already been crossed off.

Two of my neighbors go off to work each morning before the polls open (this is not hypothetical - they do). Say I take the day off, go to the polls around 7:30 am, vote as one neighbor, come back four hours later, vote as the other, then come back in the evening and vote as myself. I could do it and get away with it, because nobody wants to "intimidate" me by asking me to prove who I say I am.

Okay, I'm too honest to do that. But tell me it doesn't happen. Tell me it doesn't happen a lot. There are cities in this country where the number of registered voters is equal to the number of eligible voters.

 

[Meadmaker]

Chaos,

Are there any problems with minorities claiming voter intimidation and/or disenfranchisement in Germany?

I'm thinking particularly of Gypsies. Or maybe Turkish/German citizens.


Here in America, we had a long history of people actually doing voter intimidation. There was a lot of pressure on blacks to not register and not vote. So now, people just got into the habit of assuming that that sort of thing still goes on. I don't know if it does or not. It certainly did not in the heavily black neighborhoods where I have lived. We would routinely hear on election night of people complaining about racism if there was a snafu in the Detroit polling places, but a more likely explanation was that Detroit just ran elections poorly.

 

[Chaos]

Chaos,

Are there any problems with minorities claiming voter intimidation and/or disenfranchisement in Germany?

I'm thinking particularly of Gypsies. Or maybe Turkish/German citizens.


*snip*

None that I´d ever heard of. Come to think of it, I´ve never heard about any election scandal in post-war Germany, at least above county level.

The scandals we´ve had revolve around campaign finances and contributions to political parties, and lately, during the 2002 campaign, anti-semitic ads done by a Liberal Party candidate. (BTW do not confuse our Liberals, the FDP, with your concept of liberals. They´re more like a watered-down version of the Libertarian Party - I like to think of their views as "homeopathic libertarianism")

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

There was a review yesterday, after a successful freedom of information act lawsuit was filed by CNN , to examine the "felons list". There were thousands of names that weren't felons and had the right to vote . The majority of these people were Dems. In 2000, 173,000 were deemed ineligible excluding by mistake 50,000 eligible voters - majority Dems. with disproportionate representation by blacks. With a 537 vote margin , do You think the ones excluded could have made a difference one way or another?

Now I don't believe in grand conspiracies but isn't that peculiar?

An aside: CNN was joined in their legal action by the ACLU and Sen.Bill Nelson (D FLA) , but they didn't mention it in their article hehehe I wonder why?

Full text : http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/28/fla.vote/
Analysis : http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040702-013428-5325r.htm

 

[BPSCG]

There was a review yesterday, after a successful freedom of information act lawsuit was filed by CNN , to examine the "felons list". There were thousands of names that weren't felons and had the right to vote . The majority of these people were Dems. In 2000, 173,000 were deemed ineligible excluding by mistake 50,000 eligible voters - majority Dems. with disproportionate representation by blacks. With a 537 vote margin , do You think the ones excluded could have made a difference one way or another?

Now I don't believe in grand conspiracies but isn't that peculiar?

What's the peculiar part?

It's an unfortunate fact that blacks are a disproportionate portion of the country's felon population. So it's more likely that a felon's list will have a disproportionate number of black people on it.

I'm betting the felons list includes the person's race or ethnicity. If there's a disproportionate number of black men in prison, then there's going to be a disproportionate number of black people erroneously on the list.

Is the solution to simply throw out the list? Or is it to do a better job? The Dems would have you believe that it's better to throw out the entire list unless it's perfect. That means they'd rather have 123,000 felons wrongly able to vote in Florida (173,000 less 50,000) than have only one eligible person barred.

Is that the tradeoff we want? If so, then we might as well just allow felons to vote like anyone else.

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Well You didn't answer my first question, but that's OK.

BPSCG quote:
"What's the peculiar part?

It's an unfortunate fact that blacks are a disproportionate portion of the country's felon population. So it's more likely that a felon's list will have a disproportionate number of black people on it.

I'm betting the felons list includes the person's race or ethnicity. If there's a disproportionate number of black men in prison, then there's going to be a disproportionate number of black people erroneously on the list."

That a pretty egregious statement, the disproportionate representation by blacks in the justice system is a fact regardless of cause. That this should carry over to people who were not felons is a non- sequitur and offensive at that.

The peculiar part is altho the list was reviewed and vetted ( Were doing a better job..Jeb Bush) there still were people who did not belong on the list and the statistical breakdown mimics the numbers of 2000. Further even tho Florida has a specific law to open the government to public scrutiny " The Sunshine Law" Jeb and crowd made CNN go to court for the list . That kind of obfuscatory behavior seems to run in the Bush family.

 

[Linda]

The other interesting thing about the list of felons is that it was almost devoid of any persons with Hispanic names, an ethnic minority that traditionally votes Republican in Florida. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

The other interesting thing about the list of felons is that it was almost devoid of any persons with Hispanic names, an ethnic minority that traditionally votes Republican in Florida. Coincidence? I don't think so.

And I would think that a state with such a large proportion of hispanics as Florida, there would be a lot of Hispanic felons and thus a lot of suchnames ont he list.

That last point clinches it for me. I culd have accpeted BPCSG's argument if it weren't for that tid-bit. That makes the list suspect, in my opinion.

 

[hammegk]

In 2000, 173,000 were deemed ineligible excluding by mistake 50,000 eligible voters - majority Dems.

The 50,000 statistic based on a by-the-way from a single, Leon Co. election supervisor (and perhaps the left-wing Marian Berry Civil Rights Committee that "examined" the matter and published a report that only Democrat members signed?). Talk is cheap; facts would be nice.

"One analysis concludes" ... covers any data-mining fabrication one would care to concoct.



And I wonder what data Linda uses to conclude none of the name are latino?

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

No the text said "one analysis showed thousands..." and did not give a number. The only mention of Leon county was that a judge struck down the law that said you can look but not copy. Marion Barry was not mentioned either article. Unless you have a different source as the basis for what You posted. ( which You didn't include.)

Are dyslexic You or just too wrapped up in Your own position that You can't even read an article and quote what it says factually ?

 

[BPSCG]

Jeeze, Till, don't make me fix up your quotation framing...

Well You didn't answer my first question, but that's OK.

What, that 50,000 people being incorrectly purged would have made a difference in a very close election? I thought that 1) you were asking a rhetorical question, and 2) the answer is so obvious, only a numbskull would argue that it wouldn't.

What's the peculiar part?

It's an unfortunate fact that blacks are a disproportionate portion of the country's felon population. So it's more likely that a felon's list will have a disproportionate number of black people on it.

I'm betting the felons list includes the person's race or ethnicity. If there's a disproportionate number of black men in prison, then there's going to be a disproportionate number of black people erroneously on the list."

That a pretty egregious statement, the disproportionate representation by blacks in the justice system is a fact regardless of cause. That this should carry over to people who were not felons is a non- sequitur and offensive at that.

You miss my point. If John Smith, black taxpayer and all around good citizen shows up to vote, he's going to be more likely to be confused with John Smith, black felon, than will John Smith, white taxpayer and all around good citizen. It's not right; I'm just explaining why decent black people are more likely to be improperly challenged at the polling station.

 

[hammegk]

No the text said "one analysis showed thousands..." and did not give a number.

Agreed.

The only mention of Leon county was that a judge struck down the law that said you can look but not copy.

Er, and this one: ""Florida's 2000 felon purge program resulted in over 50,000 legal voters being disenfranchised," said Leon County elections supervisor Ion Sancho in a written statement."

Care to admit you were wrong?

Marion Barry was not mentioned either article. Unless you have a different source as the basis for what You posted. ( which You didn't include.)

True, and odd that, since her "bi-partisan commission" (nudge,nudge, wink,wink) was in the forefront studying and reporting on the FL 2000 problems.

Are dyslexic You or just too wrapped up in Your own position that You can't even read an article and quote what it says factually ?

One of us may be, but it isn't me.