Vote for Us Because... Well, Just Because

Are you really suggesting that the government can't influence the price of consumer goods? It happens all the time.

Doing it to the degree required without basicaly switching over to socialised healthcase would be difficult


Because it is the most overhyped technology ever.


Cost of initial infrastructure.

So? Lots of things that are worthwhile are also expensive. That's why the government is in an ideal position to take action that would be impossible to accomplish on an individual level. If your argument is that the cost of such a program would outweigh the benefits, then feel free to make that argument. The mere fact that a program would be expensive is not itself a reason against its implementation.

Rather conflcits with later ambitions such as paying down national debt

And make sure that legal employees have sufficient income to meet their basic needs.

Legal employees?

No more Abramoffs and Duke Cunninghams.

Um yes how are you going to regulate that?

Yeah. Clinton said it, and succeeded. Bush said it, and the neocons are now rejoicing that the 2006 deficit is "only" a projected 300 billion.

I don't think he had a list of very expensive spending programs lined up.


Is the current strategy working?

Better than isolationism would.

In exchange for not getting blown up.

Generaly messing up a sectionn of your economy just to prevent a few of you being blown up is illogical.
 
Doing it to the degree required without basicaly switching over to socialised healthcase would be difficult
And what's wrong with socialized medicine? It seems to be working reasonably well in the rest of the industrialized world.


Because it is the most overhyped technology ever.
How do you know?

Cost of initial infrastructure.
Why would the cost of initial infrastructure make it impossible?


Rather conflcits with later ambitions such as paying down national debt
I rather imagine that social programs could be expanded, and the debt paid down, by rolling back some of the tax cuts for billionaires that the current administration has enacted.



Legal employees?
Yes, you know, the people with social security numbers who pay taxes, and have kids, maybe a mortgage if they're lucky, and are currently struggling to get by on $5.15 an hour?



Um yes how are you going to regulate that?
Lobbying reform. This is an agenda; do you expect them to set out the last detail of every legislative goal here? But, there are existing registration and disclosure requirements regarding the lobbying industry; enhancing those and providing for greater oversight would be a start, as would more closely monitoring the financial affairs of legislators.

I don't think he had a list of very expensive spending programs lined up.
Nor did he shamelessly cut taxes for his wealthy buddies while dragging the nation into unnecessary war.

Better than isolationism would.
How is focusing our "national security" strategy on protecting the nation's borders isolationist? Doesn't the term "national security" almost by definition mean protection of the borders?

Generaly messing up a section of your economy just to prevent a few of you being blown up is illogical.

I don't know, a nuke going off in a port warehouse would pretty well mess up a section of the economy too, wouldn't it?
 
  • Negotiate lower prescription-drug prices - difficult with free market healthcare
  • Fund stem cell research - waste of money.

  • Do you have a severed spinal cord? Do you have a degenerative nervous condition? Many people do, and stem cell research seems to offer a reasonable possibility of treating such conditions.
    [*]increase access to healthcare - I doubt it is posible to build an NHS style system today.
    Funny, that's not what it says.
    [*]ensure the teaching of evolution - how could you do that from a federal level?
    The federal government currently provided a great deal of extra funding, tied to various federal mandates. The federal government could simply make sure that any school system which teaches ID is denied all federal money.
    [*]Increase the minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.25 an hour - increases the market for illegal imigrants
    You have an amazing talent for turning genuine economic concerns into easy-to-misunderstand snippets to make shooting them down with irrational xenophobia easier. Kudos.
    [*]implement balanced budgets - everyone says that
    Ah, but Clinton actually did it. Bush? Not so much.
    [*]pay down the national debt - and a free puppy for every child.
    Again, see Clintion. And frankly, if you want to talk about pie in the sky impossabilities, you can't ever win a war against terrorism.
    [*]Focus national security strategy to nation's borders - isolationism isn't going to work
    Imperialism clearly isn't.
    [*]increase port security - risks slowing down trade
So do illegal wars.
 
Everything that will definitely cost more money is annotated +$. Everything that will definitely save money is annotated -$.

It seems clear to me that this involves spending a lot more money. Where are the program cuts/tax hikes to pay to balance the budget and pay down the debt?
  • Negotiate lower prescription-drug prices
  • Fund stem cell research +$
  • increase access to healthcare +$
  • Increase science research +$
  • ensure the teaching of evolution
  • increase funding for community colleges +$
  • Cut student-loan interest rates by half +$
  • Ensure access to family planning methods and abortion +$
  • fund infant and child-care +$
  • Increase the minimum wage from $5.15 to $7.25 an hour
  • increase employment benefits +$
  • Enact funding recommendations of the 9/11 Commission +$
  • Institute lobbying reform
  • implement balanced budgets
  • pay down the national debt +$
  • Enact tax changes to benefit entrepreneurs
  • Focus national security strategy to nation's borders
  • increase port security +$
  • Fund more public transportation +$
  • promote environmental restoration +$
  • Repeal subsidies for oil and gas companies to encourage renewable fuels -$
And while all this is interesting and a good starting point for a debate, there's nothing regarding disposition of troops in the middle east, which, frankly, I think is a higher priority issue than lobbying reform, infant and child care funding, and community college funding.
 
[*]Repeal subsidies for oil and gas companies to encourage renewable fuels -$[/LIST]


I don't understand your assessment here. We're going to need a lot more detail about these repeals. If the subsidies are repealed, but gas prices merely rise in response, the consumer clearly isn't saving any money and neither do buisinesses which rely on automotive travel.
 
I don't understand your assessment here. We're going to need a lot more detail about these repeals. If the subsidies are repealed, but gas prices merely rise in response, the consumer clearly isn't saving any money and neither do buisinesses which rely on automotive travel.
Sorry, thought I made it clear that I meant that some (most) of the Dem proposals would cost the U.S. treasury money, while that last one would save it money. You're right that we don't know what the particular effect on the consumer will be at the gas pump, or on overall energy costs.
 
Sorry, thought I made it clear that I meant that some (most) of the Dem proposals would cost the U.S. treasury money, while that last one would save it money. You're right that we don't know what the particular effect on the consumer will be at the gas pump, or on overall energy costs.

Well, in that case, I dispute that more universally avilable healthcare would cost us money, as low cost medical visits for all peole, especially for people who make too much to qualify for Medicare, but make too little to afford insurance, would prevent many of the easily treatable conditions from developing into costly problems. To modify a cliche, a penny of prevention saves a dollar of cure.
 
Well, in that case, I dispute that more universally avilable healthcare would cost us money, as low cost medical visits for all peole, especially for people who make too much to qualify for Medicare, but make too little to afford insurance, would prevent many of the easily treatable conditions from developing into costly problems. To modify a cliche, a penny of prevention saves a dollar of cure.
You've hit on a key difference between Republicans and Democrats. Republicans have no problem adding to the national debt by providing huge tax breaks to the rich, but refuse to add a dime to it for something like universal healthcare.

Yes, I know that has to do with the Republican core value of the rich should get richer and screw you if you're not rich. (I haven't looked at the Republican agenda lately, I may be paraphrasing that specific value ;))
 
Well, in that case, I dispute that more universally avilable healthcare would cost us money, as low cost medical visits for all peole, especially for people who make too much to qualify for Medicare, but make too little to afford insurance, would prevent many of the easily treatable conditions from developing into costly problems. To modify a cliche, a penny of prevention saves a dollar of cure.
For starts, you've confused Medicare (health insurance for people over 65) and Medicaid (medical welfare). Gummint likes doing that, for some reason (Social Security and Supplemental Security Income is another example of two income-transfer programs with confusingly similar names).

Whatever the long-term net cost of government-provided universal health coverage, you can't seriously argue that paying for it won't be staggeringly expensive. The costs of both Medicare and Medicaid have ballooned far beyond what anyone predicted when the programs were first implemented - not just in dollar terms, but as percentage of the total federal budget.

Anyway, we're getting away from my main point: there are a lot of proposals for spending in the Democrats' plan, but very little about how to pay for them.
 
For starts, you've confused Medicare (health insurance for people over 65) and Medicaid (medical welfare). Gummint likes doing that, for some reason (Social Security and Supplemental Security Income is another example of two income-transfer programs with confusingly similar names).

Whatever the long-term net cost of government-provided universal health coverage, you can't seriously argue that paying for it won't be staggeringly expensive. The costs of both Medicare and Medicaid have ballooned far beyond what anyone predicted when the programs were first implemented - not just in dollar terms, but as percentage of the total federal budget.

Anyway, we're getting away from my main point: there are a lot of proposals for spending in the Democrats' plan, but very little about how to pay for them.

I most certainly can argue that the costs won't rise. Watch me do it.

Let's look at the situation of our fellow poster, Fowlsound. Fowlsound has a potentially lethal form of cancer in his spine. Currently, he recieves government aid to help provide him treatments which reduce the chances for a relapse. Now, in monetary terms, a relapse would mean tens, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical procedures, if you want to ignore the human dimension of suffering with cancer. The way our system is currently set up, if Fowlsound's income rises about a modest level, his government assistance for medical expenses dries up. If he suffered a relapse, he would then get his treatment (as his ability to pay would rapidly be exhausted), paid for by the government in the amounts of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Let me summarize.

We either pay thousands of dollars for prevention and treatment, or we ignore the problem, and then pay for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of care.

Again, a penny of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Now, a strict conservative might say this situation we presently face is a reason to abolish all forms of government medical assistance entirely, but frankly, I'm not that cold blooded. It's difficult to dispute that workers who are healthy, and have an expectaion of being cared for if they become ill, are more productive. For one thing, if a child in a family comes down with a preventable condition that, beccause of our tightfisted poolicy, went untreated, that child's entirely family may be economically harmed by our unwillingness to help prevent that disease.

Even from a purely economic perspective, I don't see how one can say that government assistance for medical benefits is a bad idea, I would tend to think that the nature of the debate should revolves around what kind of program to implement, and how much to allocate, not whether to do it nor not. I hate to beat a dead horse, but since a great many medical conditions can be treated relatively inexpensively when caught earlier, it makes sense to focus funding on regular medical visits, routine testing, and screening for potentially deadly (i.e. costly) conditions).
 
Everything that will definitely cost more money is annotated +$. Everything that will definitely save money is annotated -$.

It seems clear to me that this involves spending a lot more money. Where are the program cuts/tax hikes to pay to balance the budget and pay down the debt?

Rolling back tax breaks for top .5%: -$ -$ -$

(More accurately, it would put more money in the treasury to fund such programs rather than, strictly speaking, save money, but the net result is the same).

You're right, though, that the Democrats should stop playing coy and admit--hell, rejoice in-- the fact that they want to raise taxes on the rich.

Whatever the long-term net cost of government-provided universal health coverage, you can't seriously argue that paying for it won't be staggeringly expensive.
The Bush administration has correctly noted that we already have a system of universal health care coverage. The problem is that it's ridiculously inefficient and expensive, and is reaching its breaking point. The Democratic plan to revamp the system to allow for the more efficient delivery of routine preventative care would arguably save money in the long run.
 
Rolling back tax breaks for top .5%: -$ -$ -$

(More accurately, it would put more money in the treasury to fund such programs rather than, strictly speaking, save money, but the net result is the same).

You're right, though, that the Democrats should stop playing coy and admit--hell, rejoice in-- the fact that they want to raise taxes on the rich.
Except that it won't happen under either party.
From 1998: IRS Reform Bill Includes New Salvo of Tax Cuts for Wealthy

The Democrat party likes to play on your class envy, but they never bite the hand that feeds them.

The Bush administration has correctly noted that we already have a system of universal health care coverage. The problem is that it's ridiculously inefficient and expensive, and is reaching its breaking point. The Democratic plan to revamp the system to allow for the more efficient delivery of routine preventative care would arguably save money in the long run.
This is nothing new and the Dems aren't any closer to a solution than at any time in the past. They will attempt to raise taxes and if successful will create larger bureaucracies to absorb the new revenue. Very little of the new money will make it to the intended recipients.

From the 1998 link posted above:
Medicare is projected to become insolvent, and the Congressional Budget Office and General Accounting Office project that budget deficits will return and start a climb toward record levels.
 
Whatever the long-term net cost of government-provided universal health coverage, you can't seriously argue that paying for it won't be staggeringly expensive. The costs of both Medicare and Medicaid have ballooned far beyond what anyone predicted when the programs were first implemented - not just in dollar terms, but as percentage of the total federal budget.
Well, somehow the majority of the world's other industrialized nations manage to do so. And they are gaining a competitive advantage over us while we fiddle around.
Anyway, we're getting away from my main point: there are a lot of proposals for spending in the Democrats' plan, but very little about how to pay for them.
Revoking obscene tax cuts for the wealthy would be a good start.
 
The costs of both Medicare and Medicaid have ballooned far beyond what anyone predicted when the programs were first implemented - not just in dollar terms, but as percentage of the total federal budget.
Well, somehow the majority of the world's other industrialized nations manage to do so. And they are gaining a competitive advantage over us while we fiddle around.
You mean Germany? France? The rest of old Europe where unemployment has been stuck at 6-10% for years along with stagnant economic growth?
Revoking obscene tax cuts for the wealthy would be a good start.
You'd think so, but the facts here show otherwise. Excerpt:
This is the latest data for calendar year 2003 just released in October 2005 by the Internal Revenue Service. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%.


 
BPSCG, your "facts" come from the Rush Limbaugh show. if they're true, you might be able to find a slightly less partisan source.
 
BPSCG, your "facts" come from the Rush Limbaugh show. if they're true, you might be able to find a slightly less partisan source.
If they're true, then it's irrelevant who happens to be quoting them, isn't it?

Would you like me to link directly to the IRS source data? Or would you then complain that since I am partisan, the data is still flawed?

Well, here it is anyway.
 
So what if there is not some sort of a national message of the Democratic Party?

The Republicans have a national leader who trumpets the Republican national message and yet many of the Republican congressional representatives are trying very hard to distance themselves from their leader and these messages.

Having a national leader and/or message does not always help win elections especially when that message is not supported by the public.
 
Having a national leader and/or message does not always help win elections especially when that message is not supported by the public.
Which may express the relative lack of success of the Vegetarian Party.

But seriously, shouldn't a political party have some set of unifying principles? And doesn't a party have some sort of obligation to explain how it would apply those principles to the issues of the day?
 
If they're true, then it's irrelevant who happens to be quoting them, isn't it?

Would you like me to link directly to the IRS source data? Or would you then complain that since I am partisan, the data is still flawed?

Well, here it is anyway.

I've never been good with this stuff. The way I understand it, tax rates are down but tax revenues are up. Does this mean that total income tax revenue - the total amount of dollars the federal government is taking in - across all tax brackets is up since Bush implemented the tax cuts?
 

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