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Visual reality: a new insight.

Hammegk said:
You seem to imply there is a smorgasbord of options. What am I missing as I see just 2: body, or spirit?
Any ontology, with any number of fundamental existents, that is compatible with the epistemological constraints placed on our observations of the world, is a logically coherent ontology. That is, assuming that you think asking what the fundamental existents are makes any sense at all, which I don't.

Occam would suggest the fewest possible number of existents. My claim is that all ontologies with one existent are equivalent, since you can't actually know what that one fundamental existent really is, stuffwise. So calling the existent body, spirit, computer program, matrix, or snurfle makes no difference at all.

I will be shown to be a raving lunatic when someone comes up with an experiment that can differentiate one fundamental existent from another, in such a way that the differentiating attribute clearly partitions the set of all possible existents.

Edited to add: It may be the case that philosophers don't think they are trying to determine the actual stuff of the existents, only the existents' logical attributes. That's fine, but then there is certainly no reason to assign meaningful names to the existents. Just heap on the attributes until you can explain everything.

~~ Paul
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:


... So calling the existent body, spirit, computer program, matrix, or snurfle makes no difference at all.
Yeah, I suspected as much from you. And as you probably anticipated, I disagree. Try Occam yourself, mmmkay?

All philosophy looking at the body/spirit dichtomy is erroneous since computer program, matrix, or snurfle didn't receive equal billing? I don't think so, but it's the usual materialist/atheist obfuscation on questions they can't address.

If you can't or won't fight your way through the logical implications of body monism vs spirit monism vis-s-vis modern physics, biology, etcetc, and arrive at a conclusion, your choice.
 
Hammegk said:
All philosophy looking at the body/spirit dichtomy is erroneous since computer program, matrix, or snurfle didn't receive equal billing? I don't think so, but it's the usual materialist/atheist obfuscation on questions they can't address.

If you can't or won't fight your way through the logical implications of body monism vs spirit monism vis-s-vis modern physics, biology, etcetc, and arrive at a conclusion, your choice.
Okay, help me out. Give me two things:
  • One distinction between material monism and spirit monism. Something that one of them can explain that the other cannot, in principle, explain.
  • An example of something that your favorite monism can explain that, say, mind-as-computer-program cannot.

Also, tell me if you think that the fundamental existent really is actual mind stuff, or whether you're just thinking of a logical existent with a set of properties that you're calling "mind."

~~ Paul
 
Re: Re: Re: A few points.

lifegazer said:

Do you actually ever have anything to say other than go and read the same books that you have swallowed?

Mercutio addressed this rather well ( thank you, Mercutio ), but I wanted to respond also..


Since you do not seem to listen to what anyone has to say, what possible difference could it make, how much they have to say or how they aquired that knowledge?

Your original post in this thread revealed a complete ignorance of optics, light transmission and how visual information is processed by the human brain.

Several people who overcame their ignorance of this subject in a traditional manner, that includes reading, attempted to take your question/s seriously, explain some of it to you on a very elementary ( you are obviously not ready for anything more ) level, and suggest resources for expanding your knowledge.. Resources that have been available for a hundred years or more, that you have somehow managed to avoid.

Yes, unlike you, I have very little to say, that does not reflect what I have managed to read from books...

If you find that people often direct you toward knowledgeable resources, you might consider that they are trying to spare you further embarassment..
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Okay, help me out. Give me two things:
  • One distinction between material monism and spirit monism. Something that one of them can explain that the other cannot, in principle, explain.


  • Paul,

    Material monism cannot explain anything at all.

    But let's suppose both positions explain the world equally well. What you're adopting is a wholesale rejection of metaphysical/ontological questions. In essence what you're doing is embracing the major tenet of logical positivism. It held that only the epistemological is meaningful with the metaphysical/ontological being literally meaningless.

    So neither materialism or "spiritual monism" is true. They are not true because they are both meaningless! But you cannot hold this because you hold that the mental realm has its origin in physical processes. But this is a metaphysical position by definition.

    Basically logical positivism is simply meaningless.
 
Ian said:
So neither materialism or "spiritual monism" is true. They are not true because they are both meaningless! But you cannot hold this because you hold that the mental realm has its origin in physical processes. But this is a metaphysical position by definition.
I do not hold that the mind has its origin in an ontological "physical process." I hold that what we observe as mind most probably has its origin in what we observe as brain. It is an entirely epistemological position. I admit that I use physicalist-sounding terms when I discuss these things, but that is because I don't know how else to talk. I have not heard an argument to persuade me that the mind cannot have its origin in the brain. Neither have I heard an argument to distinguish one monistic position from another.

I am therefore willing to concede that, if we really could figure out what the fundamental existent "stuff" is, we might find it more like spirit than material. However, I don't think we can figure that out.

If pressed to take an ontological stand, even in the face of its utter meaninglessness, I would go for the existence of an external world independent of us.

If this all makes me a logical positivist, then so be it. I will gladly stop slamming ontology when someone presents me with an argument why it is meaningful. Logical positivism rejected ethics, too, did it not? I don't.

~~ Paul
 
lifegazer said:

Contradictory statement, since you're proclaiming this as a truth.

I don't recall saying that, I would say that all statemenst are false. There is only a false human approximation of the non-existant reality.
All statements are false , including this one.


Unfounded assertion.

Quite true since all statemenst are assertions at best and assumptions at the very least.


True. So at least you know you have a mind. The Mind is the creator of the things it puts upon 'your' awareness. As discussed in this thread, your reality of things is a mind-construct. And whilst we cannot be sure about the things, there can be no doubt about the mind itself.


Sure there can, I don't know anything, I just make educated guesses. I could be a brain in a jar. I could be an experients being fed qualia.
The proof of the mind is the same as the proof of the physical world.
I experience=I sense. In my POV.
The reality of the mind is a mind thing as well, no proof whatsoever. I think I have a body, no proof, I think that I think, no proof. Same:same.


You can know your own reality by going to the source of its construct. But note that "the brain" is a thing within that construct. It's in your awareness, along with everythin else.

And mind is just a construct within mind. Same:same.

All equaly true, and all equaly false.
 
Dancing David said:
Contradictory statement, since you're proclaiming this as a truth.

I don't recall saying that
"My take on hihilism is that nothing know by humans is true"

... Are you, or are you not, saying this is true? If it is true, then your statement is self-defeating; and if it is false, then humans can know truths. Either way, you lose.
I would say that all statemenst are false. There is only a false human approximation of the non-existant reality.
All statements are false , including this one.
If this statement is false, as you declare, then all statements are not false.
Your philosophy is self-defeating DD, like Wittgenstein's and Geoffs. You really need to change it.
Quite true since all statemenst are assertions at best and assumptions at the very least.
Is this statement true? Or is it another statement that is false, like all others?
I've got nothing more to say about your nihilism, except that it makes no sense and is a self-defeating philosophy. But it's never too late to change your mind.
 
Mercutio said:
Interesting...I thought there was a chance you had asked the question because you wanted to learn something. Apparently not.
I presented an argument for the purpose of rational debate. Given that not a soul in this thread has completely explained my questions and doubts, I'd say that the convo was far from over.

I haven't joined a book club you know.
 
lifegazer said:

I presented an argument for the purpose of rational debate.


No you didn't...

You said:

Here's the question: How does the eye and/or brain know what distance any specific photon has traversed through space?

.... And revealed a total ignorance of the visual process of human beings.. Then proceeded to ignore all attempts to remedy your ignorance..
 
lifegazer said:

"My take on hihilism is that nothing know by humans is true"

... Are you, or are you not, saying this is true? If it is true, then your statement is self-defeating; and if it is false, then humans can know truths. Either way, you lose.

You are just pointing to the underpinning of nihilism, that there is no statement that can be proved true.
All statements are false, would exclude the dichotomy because the dichotomy is false as well. I am not going to defend nihilism beyond saying it is a tool like monism, and in fact they are drawn from the same conclusion.
You are operating under the assumption that if not-p=true then p=false and or some other arrangement which is similar. Nihilism says that all such statements are false from the get go. And therefore all statements are equaly false and equaly true.
It is like the island of knights and knave where all memebrs of the island either tell the truth or always tell a lie. In nihilsism it is assumed that they are all knights and all knaves, equally.


If this statement is false, as you declare, then all statements are not false.

That is true in that all statements are equaly true and equaly false. It is just a position, and nihilsim also aknowledges that it too is a false position, because all positions are false. Isn't that cool!
It can't be self defeating because, there is no 'real' concept of victory or defeat, all concepts are false. And because all concepts are false the correlate is true that all statements are true.

"If this statement is false ,as you declare, then all statements are not false is true" is a false statement because all statements are false, and therefore all are equaly true. It then comes to the observer to decide thier own method for determining truth because all methods are false.

See there is this problem in any absolute position, wether it be nihilism or any absolute position. All positions are false.

Your philosophy is self-defeating DD, like Wittgenstein's and Geoffs. You really need to change it.

My philsophy is a disjointed mish-mash of convenience. I am a materialist, a pagan animist, a buddhist and a nihilsist. I use different tools in different situations to come to different ends in each case. Works for me, but lacks coherence on any level , because I maintain that all are true and that all are false.


Is this statement true? Or is it another statement that is false, like all others?

All statemenst are true, and then for any particular observer there statement may be relativly true, so all statements are true, because all statements are false.
Then there is the grey area where everything is neither false of true, because the statements that everything is true is false and the statements that everything is false is false and the statements that everything is neither is false and the statement that everything is both is false, so
All statements are equaly true and equaly false.
I thought that this was grade school philsophy contained in Heraclites and the observation 'You never step in the same river twice.'

I've got nothing more to say about your nihilism, except that it makes no sense and is a self-defeating philosophy. But it's never too late to change your mind.

"I've got nothing more to say about your nihilism, except that it makes no sense and is a self-defeating philosophy. But it's never too late to change your mind." is a false statement!
;)

All hail Eris!

What can you point to as true LifeGazer, they same things that lead you to believe that there is a mind are the same things that lead me to beleieve that there is a physical world.

physical world(David)=Mind World(LifeGazer)

the negation of physical world makes the equation read

NOT(physical world(David))=NOT(Mind World(LifeGazer))

but then they are both false statements any how!
 
Diogenes said:
.... And revealed a total ignorance of the visual process of human beings.. Then proceeded to ignore all attempts to remedy your ignorance..
I've not ignored anything. I even conceded to understand how the brain could fathom that some light appeared to be from a closer source than other light. Although I later realised that even a 2-dimensional TV screen can make objects (discerned from the light upon its screen) appear nearer than others, thus showing that there is no default 3-d reality anyway.
But my other main concern was that it was upto the brain to declare the distances which exist between objects since photons give no information of distance, even if they do give the appearance that distance might exist.

Alot of you are mistaking the image 'we' see as the image the brain would see. But this is not the case. The image we see is the brain's abstract construct of the 2-d image that it has become aware of. I've already had to point out to upchurch that "blurry vision" is a phenomena occuring in the image that 'we' see. It's a consequence of the way the brain constructs abstract perception.
Alot of the so-called explanations given by the members here, are totally irrelevant because they are also guilty of failing to distinguish the brain's sight from our own.
The brain literally sees a 2-dimensional construct of light. It completely creates the third spatial dimension for itself, as fathomed from light motion upon that 2-d screen.

Also, looking at a 2-d plane with two eyes would make no difference, I don't think. I mean, we look at the objects upon our 2-d TV screen with two eyes, don't we?
Two eyes would only make a difference to 3-dimensional [spatial]information.
I would suggest that in a 3-d spatial construct, that the brain would create the awareness of a body with two eyes to see the 3-dimensional information given to awareness through those eyes.
But to the brain that sees 2 dimensions, of what use are two eyes?
 
Diogenes said:


You seem to have missed the point that it is precisely the two slightly different images, presented by two eyes that enables the brain to construct a 3D image.
"Also, looking at a 2-d plane with two eyes would make no difference, I don't think. I mean, we look at the objects upon our 2-d TV screen with two eyes, don't we?
Two eyes would only make a difference to 3-dimensional [spatial]information."

What do you say to this?
 
lifegazer said:

"Also, looking at a 2-d plane with two eyes would make no difference, I don't think. I mean, we look at the objects upon our 2-d TV screen with two eyes, don't we?
Two eyes would only make a difference to 3-dimensional [spatial]information."

What do you say to this?

Yes one eye is all we need for TV..

I don't understand what your point is.. A 2-D TV screen is a construct.. I don't think our visual system evolved with TV in mind.
 
lifegazer said:

"Also, looking at a 2-d plane with two eyes would make no difference, I don't think. I mean, we look at the objects upon our 2-d TV screen with two eyes, don't we?
Two eyes would only make a difference to 3-dimensional [spatial]information."

What do you say to this?

I'd say that that is whole point that both of us are making, the brain/mind uses a number of cues to create the depth perception, mentioned already are shading, blurriness, the hazing effect and the texture gradient. these are all phenomena that our brain/mind uses to create the perception of depth to 2D picture as presented on a TV screen.

I thought this has already been addressed.?
 
Diogenes said:


Yes one eye is all we need TV..

I don't understand what your point is.. A 2-D TV screen is a construct.. I don't think our visual system evolved with TV in mind.
But the initial point of the discussion was that the brain is only aware of a 2-dimensional plane of light, which gives no direct information of distance travelled (by that light). Those distances are infered by the brain, because of the changing appearance of light upon that plane. The brain then constructs a 3-dimensional abstract spatial-reality for its own awareness. The ego is born.
But for the brain itself, seeing reality is akin to us observing a TV screen. That's why I said that two eyes are actually useless for the brain. Having two eyes doesn't make any real difference when observing a 2-d plane.
That's why I also suggested that two eyes are constructed into the 3-dimensional reality that 'we' see, since in
3-d, two eyes are useful for judging distances.
 
lifegazer said:

But the initial point of the discussion was that the brain is only aware of a 2-dimensional plane of light, which gives no direct information of distance travelled (by that light). Those distances are infered by the brain, because of the changing appearance of light upon that plane. The brain then constructs a 3-dimensional abstract spatial-reality for its own awareness. The ego is born.
But for the brain itself, seeing reality is akin to us observing a TV screen. That's why I said that two eyes are actually useless for the brain. Having two eyes doesn't make any real difference when observing a 2-d plane.
That's why I also suggested that two eyes are constructed into the 3-dimensional reality that 'we' see, since in
3-d, two eyes are useful for judging distances.

You still don't quite grasp what is going on. The brain does not view a 2d plane, it is grasping the difference between two 2d planes. So the start of the process would look more like this:

3ddice.jpg


(but of course, with a little less confusion, and without the crazy colors). From the congomeration of the two images, it can be determined fairly quickly the 3d shape of each object in the scene. Look at the D4. By seeing the 1 line up in both images, but the 3 is offset, you can determine that the triangle shape is slanted towards you.

In the brain, the process of vision is segmented into many seperate processes. Perceiving motion, for example, is a process all on its own. People who have damage to this part of their brain can no longer perceive motion:

http://www.hhmi.org/senses/b210.html

Even people milling through a room made her feel very uneasy, she complained to Josef Zihl, a neuropsychologist who saw her at the Max Planck Institute for Psychiatry in Munich, Germany, in 1980, because "the people were suddenly here or there but I did not see them moving."

The vision we perceive is a lot more complex than just a 2d plane.
 
Dancing David said:
I'd say that that is whole point that both of us are making, the brain/mind uses a number of cues to create the depth perception, mentioned already are shading, blurriness, the hazing effect and the texture gradient. these are all phenomena that our brain/mind uses to create the perception of depth to 2D picture as presented on a TV screen.

I thought this has already been addressed.?
We look at a TV screen and depth or distance is infered. There is no actual information on that screen to tell us that there is any actual depth or distance between the objects and ourselves.
We assume that there is because it appears as though there is, from the particular actions of the light upon the screen. That's why TV works. If it wasn't for the fact that our brain is the master of deducing distance from 2-dimensional interaction of light, TV would be a complete washout.
The same principals apply to the brain's perspective of external reality (if one exists), whereby the brain sees a 2-d plane full of light that actually says nothing of depth or distance. Regardless, because of the actions/motion/transformation of that light, depth or distance is deduced. Exactly as on TV.
The brain then goes on to construct the 3-d realm it has deduced for itself. Hence, the third dimension of space is not only the brain's deduction, but the brain's construct. The distances we see and measure between objects and ourselves are created by ourselves, in that they are created by our brains.

I think this is worth pursuing. I'm particularly struck by the realisation that two eyes are useless for a 2-dimensional plane of information. I think this is evidence to show that "two eyes" is itself part of the brain's construct of reality.
Rather... The Mind's.
 

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