Vision From Feeling

[Old man]

given the penchant for moving goalposts, perhaps it ought to be revisionfromfeeling.com

Beautiful!

 

[Moochie]

I agree.

WRT the "art work"...I wonder how accurate it is. I mean...she wants to draw unborn infants yet her hand looks like it belongs to Skeletor.

I think there's probably enough artwork out there from which to trace/draw bits and claim them as one's own work.

In a very real way, I'm sad that this saga is drawing to its inevitable close. It's been a heck of a lot of fun and mostly good humor. My thanks to UncaYimmy, desertgal, Akhenaten, Ashles, Cuddles, and the numerous others who have contributed. And last but not least, "Anita," without whom this show would not have been possible.


M.

 

[Belz...]

Given the penchant for moving goalposts, perhaps it ought to be revisionfromfeeling.com

 

[Cuddles]

I'm probably doing it the long way, but it works. Remembering every poster's screen name and membership number and inserting them manually where appropriate works too, but that would make my brain hurt.

As already noted, the number is the post's number, not the poster's, so memorisation wouldn't really help. The easiest way to do this is to simply copy and paste the bit you want to quote and put [quote][/quote] tags around it. You won't get the link, but since the quote you're nesting it in will already have that, it's not really a problem. If you want the poster's name, you can simply put their name in the tag - [quote=Cuddles] - and it will show, again without the link.

I find it interesting that the phrase [BOLD]scientifically proven yet[/BOLD] is in quotes, as though that is an unimportant little detail that the reader / potential customer shouldn't need to worry about. I definitely get an impression of how much importance she puts on the testing of her claim, and it is not a good impression.

This rather reminds me of this thread. I think the accusation of lying is going a bit far, but there does seem to be a common theme with woos of all varieties that their claims of belief are very much at odds with their actual actions. That thread focuses specifically on Christians who, for example, say they believe the bible is the word of god, but have apparently never actually bothered to read it. This is in no way restricted to the religious though. One just has to have a quick look through the Million Dollar Challenge section to see how little effort people are willing to put into winning a million dollars, despite the fact that it could all easily be sorted out in a few evenings over a couple of months. Or look at how many people wax lyrical about homeopathy, acupuncture and so on, but head straight to their GP for some antibiotics as soon as they feel slightly ill.

If you genuinely believe you have access to the word of god, why would you not read it*? If you genuinely believe heaven is such a great place, why would you be unhappy when people die, or be scared of dying yourself? If you genuinely believe you can find hidden gold or oil or whatever, how could you not be rich**? If you genuinely believe you've invented a perpetual motion machine, why would you not become the richest person in the world? If you genuinely believe homeopathy works, why would you ever go to a real doctor? If you genuinely believe that you can see atomic structures, why would you spend your time drawing pictures of Churchill? If you genuinely believe you can win a million dollars for an hour's work, why would you give everything else in your life higher priority, often to the point of dropping out altogether because you don't have enough time?

VisionFromFeeling is no different from millions of other people who say they believe something, but who act in a way entirely at odds with the claimed belief. However, given how common this phenomenon is, it seems pretty clear that they can't possibly all be lying about it. To me, this appears to stem from the "I want to believe" phenomenon. There does seem to be something about people that is hardwired to want belief, no matter what that belief is in. People latch onto something, anything, to believe in, but rarely think through what it would actually mean to really believe it. They aren't lying about believing, but what they actually believe in is the belief itself. They don't believe, but they do believe that they believe.

This is why Anita appears to care so little for real testing. She believes she has an ability. Exactly what that ability is is largely irrelevant, so no amount of science and testing will make any difference. Unfortunately this leaves her in something of a catch 22. Unlike religious beliefs, hers is supposedly based in science, and should therefore be amenable to testing. However, if it is actually tested, it fails. Anita has claimed that she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, and she is entirely correct, although she got the context wrong. If she gets tested and fails, her belief is incorrect. If she doesn't get tested, her belief is still incorrect. I think this is why we often see such cognitive dissonance in paranormal claimants that we don't (as much) in religious people, since religious claims are usually specifically made to be unscientific (perhaps "ascientific" might be a better word) and don't face this problem.

OK, this would probably be better taken to a different thread, but I think the "sensible" discussion has pretty much run its course.



* Note that I'm in no way implying this is representative of all Christians, or any other religion, but there are certainly some people who behave this way.
** Yes, I know they all claim that they can't use their powers for profit. Instead of "rich", feel free to insert anything positive along the lines of helping starving children or saving Wales or whatever.

 

[Ashles]

OK, this would probably be better taken to a different thread, but I think the "sensible" discussion has pretty much run its course.

I've started a new thread to discuss the details of her study or survey.

The IIG test looks like it won't happen and any theoretical analysis of her 'ability' is now secret, so I think that is currently the only area where she is still discussing protocols and specifics.

Vision From Feeling - The Study and Survey

 

[Agatha]

Yes, I know they all claim that they can't use their powers for profit. Instead of "rich", feel free to insert anything positive along the lines of helping starving children or saving Wales or whatever.

I know it got left off a map of the EU, but I don't think it's in urgent need of saving.

I don't see anything in Anita's claims that cannot be more simply explained by a vivid imagination and some cold/warm/hot reading. I can see that as she has built up this picture of herself as special, it will be very hard for her to accept that there is no unique ability; her identity is bound up with her belief in it.

 

[calebprime]

...
This rather reminds me of this thread. I think the accusation of lying is going a bit far, but there does seem to be a common theme with woos of all varieties that their claims of belief are very much at odds with their actual actions. That thread focuses specifically on Christians who, for example, say they believe the bible is the word of god, but have apparently never actually bothered to read it. This is in no way restricted to the religious though. One just has to have a quick look through the Million Dollar Challenge section to see how little effort people are willing to put into winning a million dollars, despite the fact that it could all easily be sorted out in a few evenings over a couple of months. Or look at how many people wax lyrical about homeopathy, acupuncture and so on, but head straight to their GP for some antibiotics as soon as they feel slightly ill.

If you genuinely believe you have access to the word of god, why would you not read it*? If you genuinely believe heaven is such a great place, why would you be unhappy when people die, or be scared of dying yourself? If you genuinely believe you can find hidden gold or oil or whatever, how could you not be rich**? If you genuinely believe you've invented a perpetual motion machine, why would you not become the richest person in the world? If you genuinely believe homeopathy works, why would you ever go to a real doctor? If you genuinely believe that you can see atomic structures, why would you spend your time drawing pictures of Churchill? If you genuinely believe you can win a million dollars for an hour's work, why would you give everything else in your life higher priority, often to the point of dropping out altogether because you don't have enough time?

VisionFromFeeling is no different from millions of other people who say they believe something, but who act in a way entirely at odds with the claimed belief. However, given how common this phenomenon is, it seems pretty clear that they can't possibly all be lying about it. To me, this appears to stem from the "I want to believe" phenomenon. There does seem to be something about people that is hardwired to want belief, no matter what that belief is in. People latch onto something, anything, to believe in, but rarely think through what it would actually mean to really believe it. They aren't lying about believing, but what they actually believe in is the belief itself. They don't believe, but they do believe that they believe.

This is why Anita appears to care so little for real testing. She believes she has an ability. Exactly what that ability is is largely irrelevant, so no amount of science and testing will make any difference. Unfortunately this leaves her in something of a catch 22. Unlike religious beliefs, hers is supposedly based in science, and should therefore be amenable to testing. However, if it is actually tested, it fails. Anita has claimed that she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, and she is entirely correct, although she got the context wrong. If she gets tested and fails, her belief is incorrect. If she doesn't get tested, her belief is still incorrect. I think this is why we often see such cognitive dissonance in paranormal claimants that we don't (as much) in religious people, since religious claims are usually specifically made to be unscientific (perhaps "ascientific" might be a better word) and don't face this problem.

OK, this would probably be better taken to a different thread, but I think the "sensible" discussion has pretty much run its course.



* Note that I'm in no way implying this is representative of all Christians, or any other religion, but there are certainly some people who behave this way.
** Yes, I know they all claim that they can't use their powers for profit. Instead of "rich", feel free to insert anything positive along the lines of helping starving children or saving Wales or whatever.

well said, sir. I'd nominate, but it's the sensible thinking, not the language as such, that appeals to me.

 

[Ashles]

One other thing came out of it, which we haven't touched (pounced) on yet. She actually conducted her survey at the mall. She was strangely quiet about it. The only thing we know is that she didn't detect any vasectomies or breast implants. Beyond that she'll post the results "eventually."

I believe she really did it. I also believe that she found that she really couldn't read squat. I mean, this is this same woman who was all excited that she guessed that her friend had to pee. If she had found something worth noting, we would have heard about it.

I agree. I have gone through this thread and found all her references to the survey in the last 11 days. I have detailed them all in the study thread
There are entirely devoid of detail. There are just promises it will be posted 'eventually' (eventually?) and that we shouldn't criticise or form conclusions around the survey until we have read the details of the survey. Which haven't been posted.
It's as though she wants the survey swept under the table, but she has ethics enough about this to refuse to lie about it. So she is delaying until we have forgotten about it, or she can come up with a way to spin the survey into something less negative.

My prediction is that she will turn out to have discovered something that negatively affects the ability (e.g. large numbers of people around her cause the ability to become unfocused and unstable, or something like that). This will have the dual benefit of explaining away the complete absence of results and also look like the survey was productive as it has taught her something new about the ability.

That's the beauty of Paranormal claims - there are no failures, only newly discovered restrictions on the ability.

 

[nathan]

That's the beauty of Paranormal claims - there are no failures, only newly discovered restrictions on the ability.

Hope you don't mind me stealing that one

|
V

 

[desertgal]

Couple of observations, and then I'm done:

Now, that *could* be because the discussion just went that direction. However, if you go back you can see a definite uptick in aggression starting January 3rd, the day after she did her mall study.

Very true, and she was noticeably obsequious a few times, when she wasn't being snarky. It was also after the survey when she claimed to definitely have synesthesia-even before you showed her the online test.

Am I the only one to feel like there is a subtle misogyny going on at times?

I noticed that, too - she has a marked antipathy towards females. And I also noticed that most of her behind the scenes maneuvering via PM's was centered around the male posters. In fact, she didn't send that PM to Ashles until after he told her he was male.

Yes, I noticed that, too. I think she's starting to realize what a fool she's making of herself. Up-thread somewhere (after Jan. 3, I think) she wrote something along the lines of - 'And if it is cold reading, I'm amazingly good at it!', like she's beginning to actually believe that it's a possibility. There may be some hope, yet.

But, I'm afraid she has so much ego invested in this that she just can't let it go. Over ten years of 'sooper powers', down the drain.

It was after the survey, and she said that, if it was cold reading, it was "brilliant" (of course!) cold reading, where she (paraphrasing) detected even the smallest of myriad details, etc.

In effect, she didn't let go of her sooper power - she just exchanged "paranormal ability" for synesthesia, and when she got called on that, to being able to cold read like no one ever has before.

I don't see anything in Anita's claims that cannot be more simply explained by a vivid imagination and some cold/warm/hot reading. I can see that as she has built up this picture of herself as special, it will be very hard for her to accept that there is no unique ability; her identity is bound up with her belief in it.

I agree, but I have to say, again, that I think this is more than just imagination-it is full fledged delusion. In that, I don't think she woke up one morning and decide to begin scamming everyone into thinking she could do this. I think she really believes she has a special ability, and that's why she's switching from seeing images of internal body structure to this super brilliant cold reading technique. She's got to be extraordinary.

But, I do agree with Moochie that one of her motivations (along with attention, etc) in coming here was to build up her claims so that she could take the show on the road. She simply backed off on stating that openly when she realized that skeptics don't cotton to that kind of thing. The "body art" is just the first step. (And, BTW, I think that sucks. Not the Skeletor hand - the offering to draw babies in the womb. Having a baby is a special thing -imagine the disappointment the mother will feel when the baby doesn't match the picture. That's pretty low.)

I'll sign off with saying that I still believe the woman needs help-delusional or not, all of this is pretty whacked, and if she won't get help, then she deserves the RSL treatment. UncaYimmy, if you are serious about building a website, I'd be happy to help in any way you might need.

This is the first time I have participated in debunking a claimant...sniff...I'm so proud. This is definitely one for the annals.

 

[Ashles]

I noticed that, too - she has a marked antipathy towards females. And I also noticed that most of her behind the scenes maneuvering via PM's was centered around the male posters. In fact, she didn't send that PM to Ashles until after he told her he was male.

To be fair the PMs were sent when she still thought I was female. (Although the second one was telling me off. )

I have also wondered at times if there was a slight degree of difference in her reaction to different genders, but, again in the interests of fairness, she did comment in an entirely complimentary manner on my post regarding Perception while she thought I was female.

 

[Ashles]

Hope you don't mind me stealing that one

 

[Sasha]

Here's a brief conversation from the CFIW thread where a member of the IIG chapter made a comment. With his permission I've copied here.

Thanks Derek. Just wondering, are you here due to the Vision From Feeling thread we have going on? Anita mentions your group (if it's the same IIG chapter) and the test protocol she claims to be setting up with you. She also blames the lack of progress on the groups' dragging its heals.

I'm sure everyone would be interested in your comments.

Hello Sasha.

Yes, we are the same IIG that is dealing with Anita Ikonen. Her complaint is not completely unjustified. Being an all-volunteer organization can sometimes drag things out longer than we would like, but the biggest issue has been nailing down exactly what she can, or cannot, detect. She has made some statements on the JREF Forum that are contradictory to some statements that she has made to us.

I am not on the JREF Forum as much as I really should be, but another one of the IIG members is and he has been put in charge of communicating with Anita directly so that we can move her application along more quickly.

I am on the IIG Steering Committee, but I am not directly involved in the Anita Ikonen testing protocol discussion. I have been more involved in UFO claims, specifically the Billy Meier Case.

Please visit our website at www.iigwest.org to see our status reports.

Thank you.

-Derek

 

[Belz...]

Hope you don't mind me stealing that one

Ditto

 

[tsig]

Well . . .








I think the JREF and others were meant to be part of the advertising campaign. That will end well.

From Anita's Main Page:

"Follow my progress in having my perceptions scientifically tested and hopefully verified!
You can follow the discussion about this investigation on the JREF Forum at the following two discussions threads."

Looks like you were right.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Her perceptions have been verified alright.
I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that she has perceptions.

 

[TheSkepticCanuck]

Believe it or not, we were there in mid December.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4271182#post4271182

I remember reading that now. I must have subconsciously remembered it. I guess it wasn't as original as I thought. Either that, or great minds think alike.

 

[TheSkepticCanuck]

I've attached the IIG protocol in PDF form to this post. It's in this thread, but you gotta hunt for it. BTW, based on the IIG stuff I found on the web, she was doing most of the stalling (surprise). Last May they said, "We will contact Anita Ikonen via telephone, and make one last attempt to design a testing concept."

Thanks for the PDF file! I can't wait to read it during the intermission of the hockey game I'm watching.

I can't wait to buy the Vision From Feeling lunchbox!

I'd certainly buy one! Save one for me!

 

[Uncayimmy]

Very true, and she was noticeably obsequious a few times, when she wasn't being snarky. It was also after the survey when she claimed to definitely have synesthesia-even before you showed her the online test.

Obsequious? Did you get a Word a Day calendar for Christmas or something?

I agree, but I have to say, again, that I think this is more than just imagination-it is full fledged delusion. In that, I don't think she woke up one morning and decide to begin scamming everyone into thinking she could do this. I think she really believes she has a special ability, and that's why she's switching from seeing images of internal body structure to this super brilliant cold reading technique. She's got to be extraordinary.

It's all kind of complex to explain. For example, I think there might have been hallucinations involved. But then again, what if she only convinced herself that she really felt a ghost push her or that she can hear these things? That's more of a delusion. Do people with delusions do that? I'm guessing so.

I have little doubt that she actually conjures up these images in her mind. And, quite frankly, I don't think that it's all that unusual. I asked her that question about "seeing" Labrador retriever in her mind for a specific reason. My ex-wife was a 4th grade school teacher. She asked that question each year. About 1/2 the kids each year actually visualized the dog. The other half simply knew what she meant and could describe the dog without having to actually create an image.

You're probably wondering why she would ask that. Long story long (ha!) we started dating in high school. One year she got me this puzzle game. It was a black plastic rectangle cut into various angled shapes. It came with drawings of shapes on cards and the "game" was to construct the given shape using the pieces.

I was always able to create the shapes, sometimes quickly, sometimes not. My wife, however, could get some very quickly but others she just couldn't get. Basically, if she didn't get it quickly, she didn't get it at all.

As we discussed it I explained how I did it. It was an intellectual process. I reasoned out where the pieces had to go. She, by contrast, simply visualized it. This concept had me stumped.

This led to a discussion of how we approach problems. Turns out she was a very visual learner. By contrast I could read a book or listen to a lecture and understand the concepts. Programming languages came easily to me. I can explain how the heart works mechanically whereas she had to visualize it first. It was quite the revelation.

So, I tried to visualize the individual shapes that made up the drawing. I can't explain how that process works, but after several tries I got the hang of it. Sure enough I could actually "see" imaginary lines depicting the individual shapes. In many cases this made solving the puzzles much faster.

So, where was I? Oh, yeh. I think Anita probably does create the images with her imagination. That's normal. Believing this is due to sensing vibrational information is where reality ends and the delusion starts.

It kind of begs the question as to whether the imagery came before the "impressions" or afterwards? Her first reading was apparently detecting pain in a relative's hand. That's not hard to deduce, but what if you're not aware of why you think that? You share the diagnosis, and you're right. You get praise and admiration. I wonder if she "saw" the areas of pain or just had an impression like she did with my photos. If it was the latter, I could see her filling in the gaps with her imagination and the rest is history.

I think it's the latter based on her story about the crystals. She read in a book about the things she should see. After a while she eventually became able to see the light and colors. I'm sure I could, too. But as I did with the puzzle cards, I would know it was my imagination.

I'll sign off with saying that I still believe the woman needs help-delusional or not, all of this is pretty whacked, and if she won't get help, then she deserves the RSL treatment. UncaYimmy, if you are serious about building a website, I'd be happy to help in any way you might need.

I was mostly joking when I posted that, but now that she is looking to sell drawings of fetuses in the womb, I'm thinking something needs to be done, both for her sake and for others.

This is the first time I have participated in debunking a claimant...sniff...I'm so proud. This is definitely one for the annals.

Heh. You said annals. Heh.

 

[Miss_Kitt]

I'm still laughing as I type this. That was freaking hilarious! They should frame that and put it up in every OB-GYN office. I never knew!

True story: My sister's daughter was nicknamed "Winston" from about 1 month to 7 months of age, for exactly that reason. In fact, she was quite chubby, so the resemblance was uncanny!!

Chuckling, MK