Vision From Feeling 2

[VisionFromFeeling]

Dear Skeptics,
This will be my second thread here on the JREF Forum, continuing with the first one, Vision From Feeling which was closed after 4 months and 66 pages of posts because of hostile discussions on behalf of some JREF Forum members. The investigation into my paranormal claim continues, and it has not been falsified at this point. I wish to continue with discussions toward a final test protocol and toward reaching the final conclusion in my claim to answer the questions what is the actual correlation between my medical perceptions and with actual health, am I performing better than the average person or the skilled cold reader, and what is the source of the health information?

Please everyone keep this thread civil. I do not wish to see this thread become placed on moderated status and I definitely do not want to see this thread closed too soon. If you can not remain friendly and tolerant towards me as a person as well as in your response toward my claim and paranormal investigation then please have the courtesy to not disgrace this valuable thread with your hostility. There are several other threads where you can express your negativity, but please, not here!

I am a reasonable claimant, I have not made myself responsible to deserve hostilities which are ruining my chances of having the opportunity to discuss my claim here with Skeptics. Do not ruin this thread for everyone, let's keep it open since this investigation is ongoing.

And to remind everyone, my paranormal claim is to perceive visual and felt health information when I look at a person, to have experienced compelling correlation between what I perceive and with the actual health of that person, and even in cases when the health information should not be detectable by ordinary means of perception. It is a wonderfully interesting claim, if I do say so myself. So let's not be responsible for closing this thread again there is more work to be done and I wish to remain available here on the JREF Forums to discuss my ongoing investigation. Thank you!

 

[Jonquill]

Regarding your survey with Dr Carlson

"In short, I marked several ailments to the lowest extent that he did not mark. There was a very significant ailment that I detected but I did not mark on my questionnaire, because I was worried about being wrong. "

http://visionfromfeeling.com/study.html


These aren't really positive results, do you find them discouraging?

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

In the most recent, March, meeting with the local Skeptics Group, I had the chance to attempt my paranormal claim of health information detection with two of the members. After each reading I handed both mine and the volunteer's questionnaires to a group member who would provide me with photocopies later, to ensure that there is no reason to suspect me of tampering with the questionnaires, so the specifics of those readings will become available later on once I receive back that material. I will of course be reporting both the hits and the misses, both of which I made.

These readings were part of the Study I am having whose purpose is for me to gain more experience with my paranormal claim and to learn more about it so that I can form a more specific claim and in order to proceed with the test protocol formations. The Study is for educational purposes only and is not a test. The Study is not done to a quality of adequate controlled test conditions so it is not designed to be able to provide evidence in favor of the claim. The procedure of the Study is gradually improved upon and moved closer toward an actual test procedure. If the experience of correlating medical perceptions ceases, this gradual approach allows me to identify which specific detail in the procedure was the cause of that. In science you only change one experimental variable at a time so that you can attribute the changes in the observed results to that one change.

I am taking what was my everyday experience with the perceptions and moving them toward taking place under proper test conditions. I have already adjusted well to seeing the volunteers from behind rather than front view to avoid eyecontact and facial expressions both of which could offer subconscious and non-paranormal clues about their health, and I see no reduction in my performance. I have also adjusted well to the questionnaire format and absolutely love the benefits of using questionnaires over spoken description, because the volunteer has reported their health before they even meet me and that removes the suspicion that the volunteer is simply wanting to agree with me, and my answers are also in writing with no way for me to add things or to change things after the reading so that removes suspicion of that. I feel that I am going to love the final test procedure.

In one of the readings at the meeting I correctly detected menstruation/period. This was not one of the ailments listed on the questionnaires for me to look for, but I did what I call the "head-to-toe" where I look through the entire person to make note of what catches my attention the most. And it was quite obvious. If anyone wants to know what I perceived, by all means, ask. Would menstruation/period be a good candidate for a real test?

 

[Kariboo]

Would menstruation/period be a good candidate for a real test?

Sure, if you can detect that significantly above chance (which in any childbearing woman is 25% by my calculation), go ahead and use that as your claim. B.t.w. can you actually detect this in any woman? since you have never mentioned so before.

Also, have you done anything about the detecting moles we talked about in the other thread. That would also be easy to test, right?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

This will be my second thread here on the JREF Forum, continuing with the first one, Vision From Feeling which was closed after 4 months and 66 pages ..

More like 5 months, and zero evidence to substantiate your claim.

What difference will a 2nd thread make ?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I don't think menstruation would be a good candidate. Surely there are subtle odour and possibly other cues (swollen, uncomfortable breasts might make you move subtly differently, subtle behavioural changes throughout the cycle etc)?

http://www.livescience.com/health/060118_armpit_odor.html

 

[Kariboo]

Also from your website:

One FACT member said that based on what's been taking place a the JREF Forums he doesn't see why I keep going there because it doesn't do me any good, and I said that well, I just go there lately to make fun of the Skeptics there. To have fun with them.

So why do you want to discuss anything here in a civil way? you don't seem to extend that courtesy

 

[desertgal]

What is the point of further discussing your claim?

• You have consistently refused to objectively analyze any single one of your past perceptions.
• You have consistently refused to accept any other objective analysis offered about any of the claims you have made on this forum, or the anecdotal examples you have offered.
• You have consistently refused to offer any objective data about your past perceptions, or, in the case of Wayne and your 'survey', gather any objective data that might reveal your claimed abilities to be anything other than paranormal.
• You have consistently refused to accept any suggested protocol that doesn't allow you wiggle room-both here and through IIG West.
• You have consistently refused to clarify your claimed abilities-again, both here and with IIG West, to the point that they stated, in their latest update, that that is the sole reason they have been unable to establish a testing protocol with you.
• You have consistently failed all experiments of your claimed abilities via this forum, and, when confronted with those failures, you consistently refuse to acknowledge them, and simply shift the goalposts to turn every miss into either a hit, or, at least, a "non-miss".
• You have consistently stated that you are basing your investigation on unverified, unsubstantiated anecdotes. You offer no corroborative statements about any of your "correct" perceptions, and you have immediately dismissed, out of hand, a few witness statements that didn't corroborate your point of view.
• You have made every attempt to dodge and delay your proposed 'study', and avoid controlled testing. When confronted with your delaying tactics, you simply shift the goalposts and condemn the skeptics as being "impatient". We can't be impatient for something that is never going to happen.
• You have not conclusively ruled out mental illness via examination by a qualified therapist. You have not conclusively ruled out that you have convinced yourself to believe in something that isn't true.
• You have offered other unsubstantiated, unverified claims that have demolished your credibility (i.e. your description of an 'encounter' with the ghost of Benjamin Franklin which turned the erudite founding father into the colonial version of Jeff Spiccoli, and which was, when examined against the established facts of Franklin's life, largely discredited by more than one skeptic here.)
• You have openly admitted that you only come here to make fun of the skeptics.

Please explain:

• How the above eliminates the possibility that you are delusional, dishonest, or simply attempting to run a scam?
• How the above establishes you as a "reasonable" claimant?
• Why the skeptics here should expect anything different than the above, and waste further time and effort going nowhere?
• How this thread could possibly be of value, considering the above?
• Why we should contribute to any discussion of your claim when you have openly stated you have chosen to only come here to ridicule the skeptics?'

I can believe that there are pink fluffy elephants dancing on my roof. I can come here and make that claim. I can 'investigate' my subjective reality that there are pink fluffy elephants dancing on my roof. But, without indisputable proof that a) there are pink fluffy elephants in the world; and b) that a portion of them are doing the Charleston on my shingles, it would not be unreasonable for skeptics here to conclude that my claim was the result of my imagination, a mental instability, or simply a lie. Nor would it be unreasonable for them to conclude that I have convinced myself of something that isn't actually true, and logically, I have no reason to investigate my claim.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

"In short, I marked several ailments to the lowest extent that he did not mark. There was a very significant ailment that I detected but I did not mark on my questionnaire, because I was worried about being wrong. "

This is in keeping with the above points. If you are not willing to conduct the study in an honest and forthright manner, then how can you expect to "form a more specific claim in order to proceed with the test protocol formations"? If a perception is inaccurate, would not determining that help you in establishing the "correlation between what I perceive and with the actual health of that person."?

As well, if you aren't willing to conduct the study in an honest and forthright manner, why should anyone here get involved in a discussion about your claim?

 

[Kariboo]

So from your study:

I marked several ailments to the lowest extent that he did not mark.

=miss x several times and hedging your bets

There was a very significant ailment that I detected but I did not mark on my questionnaire, because I was worried about being wrong.

= miss and hedging your bets

I sensed no pain anywhere

and

However she had checked four types of pain

= miss x 4

I sensed a tense jaw ... I crossed out 'anxiety' and wrote down 'excitement' because I thought it was a nicer way to say it,

suffers from anxiety,

= miss and hedging your bets

and a heart issue

= miss

does she have her menstruation now? She said that she did!

= hit (20-25% chance of being right)

I did not detect her swallowing problem.

= miss

so all misses except 1 which can't be proven to be statistically significant.
Some misses because you don't sense something that is there, some misses because you sense something that isn't there. Which by your account disproves your ability.

 

[Vortigern99]

"One FACT member said that based on what's been taking place a the JREF Forums he doesn't see why I keep going there because it doesn't do me any good, and I said that well, I just go there lately to make fun of the Skeptics there. To have fun with them."

There is absolutely no way I'm going to be able to take this person or her claims seriously after this statement.

 

[desertgal]

I don't think menstruation would be a good candidate. Surely there are subtle odour and possibly other cues (swollen, uncomfortable breasts might make you move subtly differently, subtle behavioural changes throughout the cycle etc)?

http://www.livescience.com/health/060118_armpit_odor.html

As well, Anita reported that she 'perceived' that the subject's reproductive system was red and inflamed, which led her to conclude menstruation. But, there are other conditions that could have the same result - endometriosis, cervical cancer, ovarian cysts, pelvic inflammatory disease, among others. It would be difficult to determine the source of the inflammation.

 

[subvicepresident]

I have been following VFF thread(s) form months now and have a question for Anita.

Anita, would you say that the likelihood of you actually having a paranormal ability has decreased in you eyes since you came to this forum?

tnx

 

[Jonquill]

"I just go there lately to make fun of the Skeptics there. To have fun with them."

Pffft. Bravado. Gimpiest kid in the playground...

 

[TheSkepticCanuck]

"I just go there lately to make fun of the Skeptics there. To have fun with them."

Pffft. Bravado. Gimpiest kid in the playground...

How much do you want to bet that she comes back and tries to convince us that she was just joking with the FACT member, and that it wasn't even worth mentioning, even though she did?

 

[Moochie]

More like 5 months, and zero evidence to substantiate your claim.

What difference will a 2nd thread make ?

Allow me to answer that, if I may.

This second thread will make absolutely no difference.

If this person had anything like the "ability" claimed they would not be wasting their time here -- we would be reading about it in reputable journals and the media generally. It would be a worldwide sensation.

Their presence here tells me one thing only: fraud, whether intentional or not.

To me, a layman with scant tertiary education, this smells strongly fishy. Has done so since day one. I've published my reasons for thinking so elsewhere in our esteemed forum and need not repeat it here, suffice to say it parallels the thoughts of many others who've followed this nonsense all along.

For my part, I've avoided looking at the claimant's site since it occurs to me that they are angling to have as many visitors there as possible, and since whatever is posted there is usually echoed here, anyway.

It seems to me the more preposterous a claim, the less chance there is of any actual evidence for such claim, and this case is following that path precisely.

Like a few others here, I will continue to look in on the thread as I can, fully cognizant of the very real possibility that it will end "eventually," just like the previous one did. Oh, what fun!


M.

 

[desertgal]

How much do you want to bet that she comes back and tries to convince us that she was just joking with the FACT member, and that it wasn't even worth mentioning, even though she did?

She changed her website to read:

One FACT member said that based on what's been taking place at the JREF Forums he doesn't see why I keep going there because it doesn't do me any good, and I said that well, I just go there lately to make fun of have fun with the Skeptics there. To have fun with them. Note: With this I refer to the funny and silly posts I've been making on the JREF lately, where I make fun of Skeptics, other claimants, and myself, all in innocent harmless fun. After being formal for four months on the JREF Forums, I've sort of extracted all the valuable things I can through the bickering and harassment, so I decided to relax and have fun for a while knowing that there are no more results to post at the moment and no more progress to discuss. So I was referring to fun posts I've already made. I don't make "fun of", I meant "fun with". It is a Swedish type-o. What I said was misunderstood, and if anyone can find a post where I actually make fun of a Skeptic, please do send it to me. There are none. I don't make fun of Skeptics. I couldn't do my investigation without Skeptics.

Of course, what she actually said to the FACT member is anyone's guess, since we have only Anita's description, which we can't depend on. I'm willing to bet that the original quote was accurate.

I fail to see how she 'couldn't do her investigation without skeptics'. With the exception of the skeptics who have submitted to being 'examined' by her (which, basically, had more to do with being human than being a skeptic), she IS doing her investigation without skeptics. She has rejected protocols; rejected objective analysis; rejected advice offered by skeptics about the logistics of her study; refused to carry out simple suggested experiments that the skeptics have offered in keeping with what SHE claims she can do; and rejected, repeatedly, solid evidence that the skeptics have provided her that show her own descriptions of her ability are not consistent with synesthesia. Instead, as UncaYimmy has pointed out, she has made up terms like "chemical synesthesia" and "physics synesthesia" in order to cling to synesthesia as an alternate source of her perceptions if she cannot prove a paranormal ability.

She was, also, provided a moderated thread here, which she agreed to, which would have allowed her to precisely answer equally precise questions posed by ONE person, and which would have helped clarify her claim - and she refused to continue with it when it began to require some honest answers.

Skeptics have not contributed to her investigation. She has rebuffed their efforts at every turn. For those unfamiliar with Anita, please keep that in mind. To maintain attention on her, she will pay lip service to skeptics being valuable, in the same way that she pays lip service to being objective, but, in the end, she will not do anything that would drag her paranormal claim into the cold hard light of reality and reveal her to be anything but extraordinary.

I hope this thread is allowed to die a prompt death, since it can only follow the same downward spiral of the last one.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Dear Skeptics,
This will be my second thread here on the JREF Forum, continuing with the first one, Vision From Feeling which was closed after 4 months and 66 pages of posts because of hostile discussions on behalf of some JREF Forum members. The investigation into my paranormal claim continues, and it has not been falsified at this point. I wish to continue with discussions toward a final test protocol and toward reaching the final conclusion in my claim to answer the questions what is the actual correlation between my medical perceptions and with actual health, am I performing better than the average person or the skilled cold reader, and what is the source of the health information?

Please everyone keep this thread civil. I do not wish to see this thread become placed on moderated status and I definitely do not want to see this thread closed too soon. If you can not remain friendly and tolerant towards me as a person as well as in your response toward my claim and paranormal investigation then please have the courtesy to not disgrace this valuable thread with your hostility. There are several other threads where you can express your negativity, but please, not here!

I am a reasonable claimant, I have not made myself responsible to deserve hostilities which are ruining my chances of having the opportunity to discuss my claim here with Skeptics. Do not ruin this thread for everyone, let's keep it open since this investigation is ongoing.

And to remind everyone, my paranormal claim is to perceive visual and felt health information when I look at a person, to have experienced compelling correlation between what I perceive and with the actual health of that person, and even in cases when the health information should not be detectable by ordinary means of perception. It is a wonderfully interesting claim, if I do say so myself. So let's not be responsible for closing this thread again there is more work to be done and I wish to remain available here on the JREF Forums to discuss my ongoing investigation. Thank you!

This is called perpetuating the scam.( thats what it is, thats what it was and thats all it ever will be) This is a self infomercial repeating the same crap, the same way fpr the zillioneth time always ending in nothing. She is a willing liar and deliberate FRAUD and thats all she has ever been. Anyone who doesnt see this by now has their own afflictions to deal with. This is troll bait.

She wasnt getting the attention she craved in the moderated thread ( and the others) so she initiated another with a lame "cry" to keep it civil ( playing the innocent victim and trying to take the moral high ground against the "evil" skeptics) while putting the ring in your nose and leading you down the hoaxers path.

Listen to an old LE, this is, was and always has been a SCAM. You are being played like a cheap kazoo.

>>>which was closed after 4 months and 66 pages of posts because of hostile discussions on behalf of some JREF Forum members.

The first lie. It was closed after many pleadings,legitimate suggestions and OBFUSCATION on her part. "Hostile" is the scammers cry when they are about to be exposed. ( asking a fraud a direct question and expecting a direct answer is "hostility" because it exposes the fraud)

>>>The investigation into my paranormal claim continues, and it has not been falsified at this point.

More lies and obfuscations. She knows her claim is a self aggrandizing LIE and she deliberately puts herself in a position to NOT be proven so. It hasnt been "falsified" because she will NOT allow it to be established in the first place. ( scammers and frauds NEVER allow themselves to be pinned down)

>>> I wish to continue with discussions toward a final test protocol and toward reaching the final conclusion in my claim to answer the questions what is the actual correlation between my medical perceptions and with actual health, am I performing better than the average person or the skilled cold reader, and what is the source of the health information?

I'm an "attention ho" and I want it to be about me,me,me ( as long as I can duck proving I have an actual ability in the first place)

>>>Please everyone keep this thread civil. I

I need attention and if you keep accusing me of what you are now seeing I'm guilty of it wil be moderated and closed and I will cry and lose the attention I so crave.

>>> I do not wish to see this thread become placed on moderated status and I definitely do not want to see this thread closed too soon.

Then you cannot talk about ME ME ME

>>> If you can not remain friendly and tolerant towards me as a person as well as in your response toward my claim and paranormal investigation then please have the courtesy to not disgrace this valuable thread with your hostility.

Yes, just believe me, listen to me, cajole me- do ANYTHING but call me to the carpet to actually produce because thats mean and hostile and I will whine some more and start another thread.

>>>There are several other threads where you can express your negativity, but please, not here!

Yes please, bury them and never reference them so I have a sounding board to promote ME ME ME

>>>I am a reasonable claimant, I have not made myself responsible to deserve hostilities which are ruining my chances of having the opportunity to discuss my claim here with Skeptics.

I'm a liar,fraud and hoaxer and i dont want any of you reminding me of that. I want thos to go on so the focus is forever on ME ME ME. "Skeptics" are big "meanies" and the enemy and i want people to listen to me, believe me, have sympathy for me. As long as its ME ME ME.

>>>Do not ruin this thread for everyone, let's keep it open since this investigation is ongoing.

I want my attention so I dont have to keep bumping threads

>>>And to remind everyone, my paranormal claim is to perceive visual and felt health information when I look at a person, to have experienced compelling correlation between what I perceive and with the actual health of that person, and even in cases when the health information should not be detectable by ordinary means of perception. It is a wonderfully interesting claim, if I do say so myself. So let's not be responsible for closing this thread again there is more work to be done and I wish to remain available here on the JREF Forums to discuss my ongoing investigation. Thank you![/QUOTE]

Just dont ask me to prove it

Sorry guys and gals, this is a textbook scam. You have been taken in hook line and sinker

 

[Moochie]

<snipped for brevity>

Sorry guys and gals, this is a textbook scam. You have been taken in hook line and sinker

No I haven't. No hook. No line. No sinker.

Just a sense of humor.


M.

 

[TSR]

VfF:

Is there a reason, other than the obvious, that you have ignored my suggestion to take the pill samples you are having problems with to the health and beauty department of your local supermarket, there to use your powers to look inside the packages and compare those samples with?

You've claimed to be able to do so in the past, you know...

 

[desertgal]

I have not made myself responsible to deserve hostilities which are ruining my chances of having the opportunity to discuss my claim here with Skeptics. Do not ruin this thread for everyone, let's keep it open since this investigation is ongoing.

In addition, I have to point out that this is an outright lie, Anita. Nothing is 'ruining your chances of having the opportunity to discuss your claim with skeptics'. There are TWO moderated threads on this forum where you could discuss your claim until the end of time, with a minimum of "hostilities". You have CHOSEN not to utilize them. Don't blame the skeptics because the moderated threads prevent you from receiving the attention you seek as quickly as you might like, or that they don't allow you to sidetrack into meaningless wall o'texts to avoid giving honest answers to direct questions.

Like it or not, you ARE responsible for most of the 'hostilities'* that have come your way, as a result of your constant obfuscations, dodges, deviations, backpedaling, immaturity, and repugnant arrogance. It is a perfect example of your lack of objectivity that you refuse that responsibility, but that doesn't make it any less true. You've jerked people around from day one, and you certainly can't expect tolerance while you attempt to continue to do so. We reap what we sow.

*(For "hostilities", see "truth, logic, objectivity.")