Vision From Feeling 2

[Vortigern99]

Any reasonable thinking person can see this is a ridiculous fraud and VFF is either delusional or lying, or both. But what good does making fun of the claimant accomplish? It's just descending to her level of admitted ridicule of others, which may be "fun", or an outlet for frustration, but it certainly isn't productive or scientific or dispassionate. /shrug/ Just an outsider's observation.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Any reasonable thinking person can see this is a ridiculous fraud and VFF is either delusional or lying, or both. But what good does making fun of the claimant accomplish? It's just descending to her level of admitted ridicule of others, which may be "fun", or an outlet for frustration, but it certainly isn't productive or scientific or dispassionate. /shrug/ Just an outsider's observation.

you just had to be here for the whole ride

 

[desertgal]

...an outlet for frustration

That's all it was. Wrong or right, we are all human, after all.

 

[wardenclyffe]

Originally Posted by Vortigern99:
"Any reasonable thinking person can see this is a ridiculous fraud and VFF is either delusional or lying, or both. But what good does making fun of the claimant accomplish? It's just descending to her level of admitted ridicule of others, which may be "fun", or an outlet for frustration, but it certainly isn't productive or scientific or dispassionate. /shrug/ Just an outsider's observation."

LONGTABBER PE replied:
"you just had to be here for the whole ride"

For what it's worth, I have been here for the whole ride and I agree with Vortigern99. I don't mean to be a party-pooper or tell anyone how they should be posting. I'm just saying that I agree with Vortigen99 on this subject.

Ward

 

[Vortigern99]

It's perfectly understandable and normal and human. I don't mean to chastise or imply wrongdoing on anyone's part, because that isn't my place or my duty.

I am however voicing my opinion that ridicule and debasement of others, regardless of their lack of critical thinking skills, is not the province of this forum or its members.

 

[skeen]

I think people are just beyond tired of VFF - it's hardly possible anymore to treat her as if she is acting in good faith, because she is not. Regardless of everything that has transpired, she acts as though we're at square one, trying to either prove or disprove her claims, when they have been falsified numerous times.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Originally Posted by Vortigern99:
"Any reasonable thinking person can see this is a ridiculous fraud and VFF is either delusional or lying, or both. But what good does making fun of the claimant accomplish? It's just descending to her level of admitted ridicule of others, which may be "fun", or an outlet for frustration, but it certainly isn't productive or scientific or dispassionate. /shrug/ Just an outsider's observation."

LONGTABBER PE replied:
"you just had to be here for the whole ride"

For what it's worth, I have been here for the whole ride and I agree with Vortigern99. I don't mean to be a party-pooper or tell anyone how they should be posting. I'm just saying that I agree with Vortigen99 on this subject.

Ward

Just speaking for myself and I certainly see the points raised here but my position is that this was ( and is) a deliberate,orchestrated scam from the word go for whatever reason and as such deseres no consideration whatsoever.

 

[tsig]

It's perfectly understandable and normal and human. I don't mean to chastise or imply wrongdoing on anyone's part, because that isn't my place or my duty.

I am however voicing my opinion that ridicule and debasement of others, regardless of their lack of critical thinking skills, is not the province of this forum or its members.

Every one is here for their own reasons.

You say you don't want to chastise then you chastise.
In addition you manage to ridicule and debase others with your phrase "regardless of their lack of critical thinking skills".

 

[tsig]

Just speaking for myself and I certainly see the points raised here but my position is that this was ( and is) a deliberate,orchestrated scam from the word go for whatever reason and as such deseres no consideration whatsoever.

Same here.

I do not understand this "give 'em a break" philosophy. Let them do what they say they can do or forget about it.

When someone tells me they can do things that no one else has ever done, my first reaction is not "Wow ain't that amazing".

 

[desertgal]

It's perfectly understandable and normal and human. I don't mean to chastise or imply wrongdoing on anyone's part, because that isn't my place or my duty.

I am however voicing my opinion that ridicule and debasement of others, regardless of their lack of critical thinking skills, is not the province of this forum or its members.

I think you misunderstood my intent. This was not meant to ridicule the claimant as a person - merely to poke fun at her ludicrous claims, arguments, and antics on this forum. A personal attack, believe me, would have been very different.

This young woman is intelligent and well educated. She is capable of critical thinking, objectivity, and logic. She elects not to develop those skills. She chooses, instead, for whatever reason, to come here and play skeptics for fools.

It may not be the province of this forum, but I daresay there is not a paranormal claimant thread here that does not contain humor at the expense of the claimant's antics, to varying degrees. Even James Randi has been known to poke a little fun at the antics of woos.

If you choose to behave like a fool, you cannot expect to be treated like a rocket scientist. If you choose to disrespect people, you cannot expect respect in return.

If I offended anyone, I apologize.

 

[Vortigern99]

Every one is here for their own reasons.

You say you don't want to chastise then you chastise.
In addition you manage to ridicule and debase others with your phrase "regardless of their lack of critical thinking skills".

You are derailing this thread and purposefully trying to get a rise out of me. I stated an opinion and clearly and expressly labeled it as such. I expressed understanding that this program of ridicule is wholly human and normal, but opined that this forum is not the place for it, as outlined in the Terms of Service which we all agreed to when we signed up.

Lastly, observing that some persons lack critical thinking skills does not constitute ridicule nor debasement. It is an observation of another wholly human phenomenon, namely intellectual error, to which all of us are prone to one degree or another, not an intentional insult or form of derision.

Please keep your transparent attempts at slander and character assassination to yourself. If you cannot distinguish between the observation of a universal human characteristic and a thoughtless insult, you might perhaps reconsider your purported devotion to the tenets of critical thinking. I have no time nor inclination to defend my harmless voicing of opinion against a mean-spirited bully.

 

[Vortigern99]

I think you misunderstood my intent. This was not meant to ridicule the claimant as a person - merely to poke fun at her ludicrous claims, arguments, and antics on this forum. A personal attack, believe me, would have been very different.

This young woman is intelligent and well educated. She is capable of critical thinking, objectivity, and logic. She elects not to develop those skills. She chooses, instead, for whatever reason, to come here and play skeptics for fools.

It may not be the province of this forum, but I daresay there is not a paranormal claimant thread here that does not contain humor at the expense of the claimant's antics, to varying degrees. Even James Randi has been known to poke a little fun at the antics of woos.

If you choose to behave like a fool, you cannot expect to be treated like a rocket scientist.

If I offended anyone, I apologize.

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't mean to create such a controversy. I agree, and have agreed, that based on this and the previous VFF thread, VFF's claims are either, at worst, intentional fraud or, at best, unconscious self-delusion. I merely objected to the sidebarring silliness about steaks toppings which, while amusing, did not seem to me (for whatever my opinion might be worth) to adhere to the Terms of Service or the stated goals of this Forum.

I'm willing to drop the matter and move on, if everyone else agrees.

 

[Miss_Kitt]

....In one of the readings at the meeting I correctly detected menstruation/period. This was not one of the ailments listed on the questionnaires for me to look for, but I did what I call the "head-to-toe" where I look through the entire person to make note of what catches my attention the most. And it was quite obvious. If anyone wants to know what I perceived, by all means, ask. Would menstruation/period be a good candidate for a real test?

This may have already been dealt with, as I have not read the whole thread, but: There are definitely aroma or "pheromone" attributes in human women that have been found in scientific tests. For example, women in close quarters (roommates, sometimes co-workers) often synchronize cycles; it is documented that strippers/dancers who are not on the Pill make more money in solo dances and tips when they are in estrus, etc. Depending on the distance involved, this may not be an acceptable attribute to identify. There are also issues of water retention, skin outbreaks, possible minute clothing movement differences if external pads are used, etc. I don't think this is a very fruitful avenue; a great deal of work would be needed to make it "blinded" from detection.

Just my observations, MK

 

[Uncayimmy]

Please keep your transparent attempts at slander and character assassination to yourself. If you cannot distinguish between the observation of a universal human characteristic and a thoughtless insult, you might perhaps reconsider your purported devotion to the tenets of critical thinking. I have no time nor inclination to defend my harmless voicing of opinion against a mean-spirited bully.

It's interesting to me that in just a few posts you can get pretty riled up and take an adversarial stance, yet you don't seem to have empathy for the frustration felt by people who have read a few thousand posts about/by VFF over several months.

If you think the conduct in this thread is against the MA, then use the Report feature (red triangle on the left) to report the post(s). If you want to discuss whether it's appropriate, take it to the Forum Management area.

 

[Vortigern99]

For the record, I got "riled up" because tsig has a history of misunderstanding my motives and intentions, and casting aspersions on me which I feel to be unfounded. Perhaps I should have posted my above-quoted message in a PM to tsig, rather than publicly posting it here, as it was directed at tsig and tsig only.

Where I have failed to express "empathy for the frustration felt by people who have read a few thousand posts about/by VFF over several months", allow me to do so now. I've repeated my opinion, which most members here seem to share, that VFF's claims are spurious and possibly intentionally fraudulent. I understand that her methods of ducking questions and other behaviors typical of hoaxers are frustrating to the people here who have attempted to participate in her proposed study.

The only area in which I disagree with any of you is the degree of public ridicule and juvenile satire which VFF merits through her lack of critical thinking and apparent hoaxer-ish behavior. Anyone is welcome to disagree with me on this point, but tsig specifically suggested I was ridiculing and debasing people, which is incorrect and so required my clarification.

 

[Kariboo]

I agree with desertgal that it was meant to be a fun replica of claims in general (although it resembled part of VFf's style). After going through circle after circle with her on the same issues I guess it just started to get silly.

I don't think people are ridiculing or debasing claimants on these forums (especially if they seem sincere in their claim) and a lot of posters usually show a lot of patience and constraint in assisting them in defining their claims. nor do I see this derail as debasing.

I do think some fun is not a problem in these threads, if a person is starting to behave in a silly way (claimant or not) a silly response doesn't seem to be so bad.

YMMV

 

[Vortigern99]

You all make excellent points. Where I have offended anyone or ruffled any proverbial feathers, I heartily apologize.

 

[Uncayimmy]

This may have already been dealt with, as I have not read the whole thread, but: There are definitely aroma or "pheromone" attributes in human women that have been found in scientific tests. For example, women in close quarters (roommates, sometimes co-workers) often synchronize cycles; it is documented that strippers/dancers who are not on the Pill make more money in solo dances and tips when they are in estrus, etc. Depending on the distance involved, this may not be an acceptable attribute to identify. There are also issues of water retention, skin outbreaks, possible minute clothing movement differences if external pads are used, etc. I don't think this is a very fruitful avenue; a great deal of work would be needed to make it "blinded" from detection.

Just my observations, MK

I'm amazed that the people at FACT couldn't think of any external symptoms of menstruation. Besides what you mentioned you got yer headaches, breast soreness, cramps, pelvic/back stiffness, and so forth. These are all things that can be noticed visually. I've also noticed over the years that if a woman brings her purse to the bathroom when she could safely leave it where it was, there's a good chance she's on her period.

Besides, what are the odds that a woman of child bearing age is menstruating at any given time? I'd say 1:5 or 1:6. Then factor in all the external clues and I'd say it's an even money bet.

 

[David Wong]

This forum is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more patient with clearly insane and/or fraudulent claimants than any other group I've ever seen. Typically it takes HUNDREDS of posts before you start to see people exhibit the human weakness of frustration (and even then, often exhibited through gentle humor rather than vitriol).

But the posters are human, their patience is not inexhaustible, and yes, after seeing their early patience rewarded with outright spite, arrogance and constant insulting of their intelligence, it starts to run thin.

But new posters making claims of the paranormal get MASSIVE leeway here. She was treated with dignity and respect through many many pages and many weeks, during which it often was not returned.

If it falls short of the forum's ideals then we can all strive to do better, but the level of discourse here is, in general, pretty amazing.

 

[desertgal]

The only area in which I disagree with any of you is the degree of public ridicule and juvenile satire which VFF merits through her lack of critical thinking and apparent hoaxer-ish behavior.

Anita's hoaxer-ish behavior, if it continues, has the potential of misleading innocent people about their medical conditions. She has already stated, several times, that she will continue to believe in her ability, regardless of whether she ever completes a controlled test. She has already approached people on this forum about composing a waiver for performing public "psychic medical diagnosis"-and we all know those waivers aren't worth the paper they are written on when it comes to what gullible people will believe. As well, recently, we saw her proclaiming that, as a former LPN with no formal medical training, she considers herself to be "medical staff", and that she always behaves with the utmost professionalism. She seems to be hovering on the edge of joining the woo economy.

Juvenile satire aside, you don't believe that proposing to perform, with a non-existent ability, something that may cause other people emotional distress (or worse), and possibly misleading them about her level of training in the medical field is worthy of some public ridicule?

Her other claims are of negligible concern. If she wishes to chase ghosts, or promote herself as a "star person", however ridiculous, there is no potential for harm to other people. Although, I imagine, for those who believe in woos, her other claims would be an added incentive to believe her main claim.