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Visa express program: Just another coincidence?

busherie said:
I did, 10 minutes ago! You may not agree, but I did... If you have better explanatio, i'd love to read it!

Busherie
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That was an answer to my question? Funny neither i nor Arus thought it was. Maybe that was your opinion or what you read on a CT webpage but in either event it didn't answer a damn thing. Now go do some proper research before making idiotic ASSumptions and then answer the question as asked not as you want it to be. An answer is not a counter question either...
 
busherie said:
As for Enigma question, I think I have been clear enough, though i don't pretend to know the truth:
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So don't you think it would be a good idea to check it out before you make ASSumptions?

ETA - Redtail came extremely close to saving you from the necessity of doing research. Take the hint from his post and research it.
 
Since only 3 of the 19 terrorists used this Visa express program, the relevance of this coincidence escapes me.

But I agree it may not totally be a coincidence.

If a terror group wants to mount attacks from within the USA, it seems logical it will prefer to use nationals from "US-friendly" countries.

Iraqis, Lybians, Palestinians, indeed would attract much more attention from CIA/FBI than Saudis.

That's the way it was. Al Qaeda took advantage of that. They are smart people, not "cavemen" like the CTists think.

It doesn't in the least point to LIHOP.
 
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Busherie, are you aware that many millions of foreigners are legally allowed into the U.S. without any visas at all?
 
busherie said:
I think the source is pretty clear:

Only in Saudi Arabia did the State department implemented the Visa express program. Yes, partial versions of this type of procedure had been implemented, but never on this scale:

Partial versions of Visa Express—though not by that name—were implemented in various countries in the mid- to late-1990s. But nowhere in the world had State launched a program whereby all residents, citizens and non-citizens alike, would be expected to submit visa applications to local, private travel agencies

It is fair to say that the Visa express program was implemented in Saudi Arabia only.

As for Enigma question, I think I have been clear enough, though i don't pretend to know the truth:

the aim was, officially of course, to facilitate tourist and workers coming to the USA. The principle is simple: it was anonymous, you could apply in a travel agency. To me, that sounds like:

"Terrorists wanted!"

As I said before, many of the 9/11 terrorists were there at that time, but the intelligence agencies did not know precisely who was in the US who was not. However, what noone can deny is that the State departement was fully aware attacks were more and more likely.

Implementing this program, in Saudi Arabia: that's where OBL comes from!

Now I wait for your answers to this question:

Is it just another coincidence?
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I thought the US News and World Report was pretty clear too.

And yes it is a coincidence. 3 of 19 hijackers used the program.
 
busherie said:
Oh , I know: "facilitate" workers and tourists immigration.

In may 2001? For Saudi Arabia only?

Some were in the States already, yes. But for LIHOP theorists the US did not know very precisely if terrorists were there or not (who was there, and where). What they very precisely knew, however, is that the system was blinking red, and attacks would allow the now ready administration to go on with their agenda. OBL "was determined to strike in US".

Setting up the visa express program was part of making the attacks very very likely (if they could be more likely!)

Busherie
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So you think the the three terrorists who used the visa express program could not have gained entry into the U.S. without it? Any evidence to support that position?
 
Busherie, if your still reading this take a long hard look at Redtail's post. Do some research based off what he wrote (rather his quote) and then you will be able to answer my question with a bit more of a correct official reason. Want some more direction along with Redtail's post? What was the enviornment the state dept. was working in and what was their concern just prior to the start of the program?
 
busherie said:
I think the source is pretty clear:

Only in Saudi Arabia did the State department implemented the Visa express program. Yes, partial versions of this type of procedure had been implemented, but never on this scale:

Partial versions of Visa Express—though not by that name—were implemented in various countries in the mid- to late-1990s. But nowhere in the world had State launched a program whereby all residents, citizens and non-citizens alike, would be expected to submit visa applications to local, private travel agencies

It is fair to say that the Visa express program was implemented in Saudi Arabia only.
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While technically correct, it is very misleading. The way you say it makes it seem as if this was 100% unique to S.A. Clearly, that is not the case.

As for Enigma question, I think I have been clear enough, though i don't pretend to know the truth:
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and yet you claim it indicates complicity in the attacks.

the aim was, officially of course, to facilitate tourist and workers coming to the USA. The principle is simple: it was anonymous, you could apply in a travel agency. To me, that sounds like:

"Terrorists wanted!"

As I said before, many of the 9/11 terrorists were there at that time, but the intelligence agencies did not know precisely who was in the US who was not. However, what noone can deny is that the State departement was fully aware attacks were more and more likely.

Implementing this program, in Saudi Arabia: that's where OBL comes from!

Now I wait for your answers to this question:

Is it just another coincidence?
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No coincidence. Some of the terrorist found a hole in US security and used it.
 
Fun watching a woo try to squirm out of this. He says he doesn't pretend to know the truth yet he asks us although he claims the state dept. put out a so called terrorist want ad by the program.
 
Gravy said:
Busherie, are you aware that many millions of foreigners are legally allowed into the U.S. without any visas at all?
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Indeed. It took me about two minutes to find out that the Visa Waiver Program has been in place since 1986 and that 27 countries currently participate in it. Add in the lesser requirements of visitors from Mexico, Canada and Bermuda, and that makes 30 countries from which someone could gain entry to the US without the formalities of obtaining a visa from the State Department. Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.

I think the fundamental problem is that "Visa Express" appears to be a smoking gun only to people who already believe the US Government was responsible for 9/11, either by LIHOP or MIHOP. To the rest of us, it just looks like an attempt - perhaps misguided - to reduce red tape for travelers from a "friendly" nation.
 
Seems you don't want to answer Busherie woo. That's ok...think about what exactly the visa express program allowed and what it accomplished. Combine that with what Redtail wrote about the environment at the time and maybe you can answer without doing any real research unless the CT websites you frequent have scrambled your skills of logical reasoning.
 
busherie said:
My friend, since they were to find out who did the attacks, questions would be raised about how they got to the US, where they got their visa. At the same time, the terrorists had to be able to come to the US.

So setting up this system was the less stupid solution.

Of course, as I thought, this is just another "coincidence", showing how "laxist the system was".

Of course.
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Yes, questions would be raised - but how could anyone track a visa supplied by the shadowy NWO? The question might be raised, but would go completely unanswered - one of many things the NWO would cover up as a matter of course, if the CTist are correct. So why go out of your way to create a paper trail, if you don't have to?

As for a "laxist" system, well, seems pretty lax alright:


Babbylonian said:
Indeed. It took me about two minutes to find out that the Visa Waiver Program has been in place since 1986 and that 27 countries currently participate in it. Add in the lesser requirements of visitors from Mexico, Canada and Bermuda, and that makes 30 countries from which someone could gain entry to the US without the formalities of obtaining a visa from the State Department. Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.

I think the fundamental problem is that "Visa Express" appears to be a smoking gun only to people who already believe the US Government was responsible for 9/11, either by LIHOP or MIHOP. To the rest of us, it just looks like an attempt - perhaps misguided - to reduce red tape for travelers from a "friendly" nation.
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Babbylonian said:
Indeed. It took me about two minutes to find out that the Visa Waiver Program has been in place since 1986 and that 27 countries currently participate in it. Add in the lesser requirements of visitors from Mexico, Canada and Bermuda, and that makes 30 countries from which someone could gain entry to the US without the formalities of obtaining a visa from the State Department. Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.

I think the fundamental problem is that "Visa Express" appears to be a smoking gun only to people who already believe the US Government was responsible for 9/11, either by LIHOP or MIHOP. To the rest of us, it just looks like an attempt - perhaps misguided - to reduce red tape for travelers from a "friendly" nation.
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Why enter legally? Well my friend, think about Moussaoui.. Rings a bell?

I think people on this forum don't understand. We are not talking about Canada, Bermuda, Mexico. We are talking about Saudi Arabia.

Andorra
Iceland
Norway
Australia
Ireland
Portugal
Austria
Italy
San Marino
Belgium
Japan
Singapore
Brunei
Liechtenstein
Slovenia
Denmark
Luxembourg
Spain
Finland
Monaco
Sweden
France
the Netherlands
Switzerland
Germany
New Zealand
United Kingdom

Do you see Jordan, or Egypt?

Saudi Arabia, a country where Al Qaida got its leader and many operatives from. Is it a friendly country? Officially yes, but come on, don't think the US administration are stupids. They didn't know people from Saudi Arabia were dangerous?

Think about the "environment" in May 2001: numerous warnings sign, a system blinking red, Clarke desesperatly trying to alert the decision makers.

Enigma, you are using straw man arguments. VEP or Visa waiver program are designed to facilitate procedures for tourits and migrants. Why specifically for Saudi Arabia? Well that IS the question.

In the may 2001 context, given the warnings about very likely attacks, this is clearly not a coincidence.

if you think it is, then you are just voluntarily ignoring reality. Step away from your deeply entranched beliefs: consider this program, consider the country, consider the context, is it REALLY just a coincidence?

Busherie
 
15 of the terrorists were Saudis.
3 used the Visa Express program. 12 didn't.

That says is all.
Not a smoking gun, just one more damp squib ...
 
You've purposely missed my point (and those of others, of course), busherie. My point was that obtaining false documents establishing citizenship in one of the 30 countries listed would be (or, at least, would have been) a trivial exercise given enough money. Thus, obtaining access to the US without a visa would be easy for a decently financed terrorist (and these particular terrorists were well financed). The US still doesn't have an answer for illegal immigration, and therefore terrorists can still - even after all the safeguards that have been put in place - get into the US fairly easily and then, again, obtain falsified documents to get by day to day until they attack.

In other words, there was no need to establish a special program for Saudi Arabia if the intent was to allow terrorists into the country. And, if a conspiracy existed wishing that to happen, it would be an obvious mistake to generate a publically known program in order to do so.

The idea that terrorists couldn't get into the US without the US Government making it easier seems to be based on the preconception that terrorists are stupid and/or unworldly. They're neither.

Again, you're viewing this through the eyes of someone who already believes. It's no different than those seeing images of the virgin Mary as "miracles" because they're predisposed to do so, while others just see patterns that usually don't look like anything in particular.
 
Babbylonian said:
...Besides, given the number of illegal immigrants who get into the US (and the amount of money AQ could have spent per-terrorist to ensure their participation in 9/11), I don't see that the ability to legally enter the country would be a requirement of the operation.
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Jason Bermas, who wraps himself in the flag and claims to stand for freedom and against the military-industrial complex, proposed a solution to this problem: militarize the U.S. borders. All of them. Seriously.
 
DavidJames said:
Unless you can provide some facts to support this, another of your wet dreams, then yes, it is.

Please note, if some real evidence is obtained, I would consider it.
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I'd love to present hard evidence. The problem is, i don't have subpoena powers! And we don't have a whitle blower, nor do we have a clear piece of paper signed by Negroponte or Powell or somebody from the State dept saying "create the VEP for Saudi Arabia".

The problem, for CTists, is we do have several serious smoking guns (in our opinion at least I know you guys don't agree, but that's what debate is for) but as any investigation, when you have serious hints you must have certain powers to investigate (subpoena, searches, mandates etc...). We don't. This is why we call for a new investigation.

After all, it may have been a coincidence (lack of information sharing within the State dept, incompetence etc...). But I think the doubts are serious enough to be sure it was a coincidence. Just like a cop would do.

Firestone said:
15 of the terrorists were Saudis.
3 used the Visa Express program. 12 didn't.

That says is all.
Not a smoking gun, just one more damp squib ...
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Again you do not undertsand my point. I'm not saying the State dept sent an e-mail to the hijackers saying "ok guys we set up a new visa program to allow you to come discretely to the US to kill plenty of innocent citizens arrrr!!".

No it's not that simple. My view is some leaders (Cheney, Rice, and a few others) had a global picture of what was going on: an attack was imminent on US soil. People were coming to the US for that purpose, they had Saudi links. We have an agenda we think is good for the US and the world. It's worth the death of innocent citizens (after all, how many have been sacrificed since then?).

In this context, they thought that loosening the visa procedure for Saudi Arabia was gonna facilitate the coming of tourists and migrants, but also terrorists.

And the attacks happened. And surely they've had a heaby burden since then. But, after all, Bush sleeps very well at night even though US citizens and troops, and thousands of civilians around the world die (partly) because of them.

Life is not simple, it is cruel, you should start to realize that.

Now, thanks for your attention and plz show how this Saudi visa program was just a coincidence.

PS: babylonian, they were scared to get caught. Like Moussaoui did. This program was a blessing.
 
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