Vinegar Miracle Cure!

[Madalch]

CH3COOH -acetic acid. Does not form chains any more than water does.

The "chain" of a fatty acid is the part of the molecule that is a bunch of carbons strung together. Fatty acids do not "form" a chain, they -are- one.

Something like palmitic acid is CH3CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2O2H, with 16 carbons in a straight (unbranched) chain. Acetic acid is exactly the same way, only a lot shorter.

I disagree with the idea that vinegar will make you eat less- I eat a lot more fries when vinegar is available. Potato chips, too.

 

[casebro]

re: acetic acid and acetone, diabetes...

When the body breaks down fats and alcohol, one of the by-products is acetaldehyde. And we know that alcohol lowers blood sugar. I'm thinking that the reason exercise lowers insulin resistance is that the body uses the acet-whatevers as a signal that the muscles are out of sugar and are burning fats. So I've been wondering whether taking acetone would also lower blood sugar. I figure mixing it about 5%. Similar to the alcohol percent in beers and wines. No, maybe less- vinegar is about 5% and is waaay strong. The net seems to have very little info on acetone ingestion. Any input here?

 

[Dr. Imago]

Thanks Doc !!

That's the type of info I was looking for.

Do you know of any home remedys that do work?

Yes, a lot more sensible approach would be to do the following:

(1) Go to your doctor and get a good physical. Make sure it is safe for you to exercise. It actually takes three separate blood pressure readings on three separate occassions to make the diagnosis of hypertension. You should, at the very least, have an established rapport with a physician you like and will give you the time you need.

(2) Calculate your BMI. An ideal BMI is between 19-25. You can do this right now by going to this free online calculator: http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

(3) Instead of jumping on the couch after dinner every night and exercising your thenar muscles with the remote, go for a modest 20-30 minute walk outside. If it is too cold, wet, rainy, icey, etc., do the same at your local mall.

(4) Try to maintain that ideal BMI by eating healthier. Cut out unnecessary supplemental table salt on foods. Eat less saturated fats. Try to tailor your eating around the "new" food pyramid: http://www.mypyramid.gov/

(5) If you smoke cigarettes, quit. If you drink more than 2 alcoholic beverages a day, stop. These things will add to your benefit.

(6) If these things fail after a few months, talk with your physician about adding low-cost and effective medications to your regimen. Continue to do steps 1-5 until you achieve your ideal body weight.

It's a relatively simple regimen, but it requires work... and it works. Good luck!

-Dr. Imago

 

[Dr. Imago]

Something like palmitic acid is CH3CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2O2H, with 16 carbons in a straight (unbranched) chain. Acetic acid is exactly the same way, only a lot shorter.

For the second time, acetic acid is not a "fatty acid". It has no chain. It has no properties of a "fat".

-Dr. Imago

 

[flume]

For the second time, acetic acid is not a "fatty acid". It has no chain. It has no properties of a "fat".

In my reading it is a common usage to call acetic acid (acetate) a short chain fatty acid.

An example from pubmed:

J Clin Gastroenterol. 2006 Mar;40(3):235-43.
Colonic health: fermentation and short chain fatty acids.
Wong JM, de Souza R, Kendall CW, Emam A, Jenkins DJ.

"Interest has been recently rekindled in short chain fatty acids (SCFAs) with the emergence of prebiotics and probiotics aimed at improving colonic and systemic health. Dietary carbohydrates, specifically resistant starches and dietary fiber, are substrates for fermentation that produce SCFAs, primarily acetate, propionate, and butyrate, as end products. The rate and amount of SCFA production depends on the species and amounts of microflora present in the colon, the substrate source and gut transit time. SCFAs are readily absorbed. Butyrate is the major energy source for colonocytes. Propionate is largely taken up by the liver. Acetate enters the peripheral circulation to be metabolized by peripheral tissues. .... "

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Thanks Doc !!

That's the type of info I was looking for.

Do you know of any home remedys that do work?

So what was wrong with my answer in Post #4 in this thread?

 

[Sunni Man]

So what was wrong with my answer in Post #4 in this thread?

O.K. thanks also GT

 

[Dr. Imago]

In my reading it is a common usage to call acetic acid (acetate) a short chain fatty acid.

An example from pubmed:

J Clin Gastroenterol. 2006 Mar;40(3):235-43.
Colonic health: fermentation and short chain fatty acids.
Wong JM, de Souza R, Kendall CW, Emam A, Jenkins DJ.

"Interest has been recently rekindled in short chain fatty acids (SCFAs) with the emergence of prebiotics and probiotics aimed at improving colonic and systemic health. Dietary carbohydrates, specifically resistant starches and dietary fiber, are substrates for fermentation that produce SCFAs, primarily acetate, propionate, and butyrate, as end products. The rate and amount of SCFA production depends on the species and amounts of microflora present in the colon, the substrate source and gut transit time. SCFAs are readily absorbed. Butyrate is the major energy source for colonocytes. Propionate is largely taken up by the liver. Acetate enters the peripheral circulation to be metabolized by peripheral tissues. .... "

This is a misnomer and misrepresentation. Generally speaking and accepted, a true fatty acid has to have at least 4 carbons in the chain. The carboxyl group is the only thing that acetate (the conjugate base of acetic acid, which is the "free" form in vivo) shares with other true fatty acids.

Acetic acid/acetate share no common chemical properties, aside from chemical structure at the carboxyl end.

-Dr. Imago

 

[Madalch]

For the second time, acetic acid is not a "fatty acid". It has no chain. It has no properties of a "fat".

I didn't say it was- I was explaining what the chain referred to.

 

[Madalch]

The carboxyl group is the only thing that acetate (the conjugate base of acetic acid, which is the "free" form in vivo) shares with other true fatty acids.

Acetic acid/acetate share no common chemical properties, aside from chemical structure at the carboxyl end.

But since it's that carboxylic acid group at the end of the chain (or "chain", if you don't really want to apply that term to two carbons) that determines most of the chemical properties, I think you're overstating your case.

Chemically, acetic acid is very similar to propionic acid. And propionic acid is very similar to butyric. It's a little more water-soluble (okay, that's a physical property), but it undergoes the same general chemical reactions. And butyric is very similar to valeric acid, and so on and so forth up the list.

Again, I wouldn't call acetic acid a "fatty" acid, but claiming that it's completely different is simply wrong.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

O.K. thanks also GT

Thanks for your thanks!

 

[Dr. Imago]

Again, I wouldn't call acetic acid a "fatty" acid, but claiming that it's completely different is simply wrong.

It's completely different.

Just because something may share a moiety of another chemical, and may even be a building block of another molecule, does not mean it shares similar properties or has a similar biologic effect. Your explanation 's akin to saying that benzene is similar to phenol, for which the only difference is the addition of a hydroxyl group to the aromatic benzene ring. Benzene is mainly used today as a starter chemical for other reactions, and it is highly carcinogenic. Phenol is used in Chloraseptic spray and other medicinal preparations.

Fatty acids have completely different general properties than does acetic acid. Don't confuse the chemistry here.

-Dr. Imago

 

[flume]

This is a misnomer and misrepresentation. Generally speaking and accepted, a true fatty acid has to have at least 4 carbons in the chain. The carboxyl group is the only thing that acetate (the conjugate base of acetic acid, which is the "free" form in vivo) shares with other true fatty acids.

Acetic acid/acetate share no common chemical properties, aside from chemical structure at the carboxyl end.

This makes sense, but at the same time, calling acetate a SCFA is a common usage in some fields. Can it be converted directly to acetyl CoA? Or is it used to build fatty acids? The usage may be chemically wrong or sloppy, but it seems that it must have some biological rationale or acetate wouldn't be called a SCFA in so many references.

 

[Madalch]

It's completely different.

Just because something may share a moiety of another chemical, and may even be a building block of another molecule, does not mean it shares similar properties or has a similar biologic effect. Your explanation 's akin to saying that benzene is similar to phenol, for which the only difference is the addition of a hydroxyl group to the aromatic benzene ring.

No it isn't. Benzene and phenol are different because phenol has a hydroxyl group, which is a functional group that benzene lacks. Acetic acid and butyric acid have the same functional groups- in addition to the alkane stuff (which has barely any reactivity of its own), they both have a carboxylic acid group, and that's all.

It's a lot more like saying that toluene and benzene are pretty similar. Because they are.

And anyway, I'm talking about chemistry here, not biological effects. I might say that acetic acid and formic acid are fairly similar chemically (although acetic is a lot more similar to propionic than formic), but I sure as Ed won't try putting 5% formic acid on my fries.

 

[Chris Haynes]

So why did taking organic apple cider vinegar for a couple of days lower my blood pressure?

There may have been other factors.

I have found that my blood pressure is lots lower when I walk five blocks to a place where the blood donation van is at compared to when I drive to the area blood center four miles away.

It seems that walking for 15 minutes is better for my blood pressure than driving 15 minutes.

My family doctor has also noticed that my blood pressure is affected by driving. So at my annual exam he ignores the blood pressure taken by the nurse, and retakes my blood pressure when he comes in to examine me (it may also be because I've known him for almost 25 years, and the nurse I've only known for a couple to five years).

 

[Dr. Imago]

No it isn't. Benzene and phenol are different because phenol has a hydroxyl group, which is a functional group that benzene lacks. Acetic acid and butyric acid have the same functional groups- in addition to the alkane stuff (which has barely any reactivity of its own), they both have a carboxylic acid group, and that's all.

It's a lot more like saying that toluene and benzene are pretty similar. Because they are.

And anyway, I'm talking about chemistry here, not biological effects. I might say that acetic acid and formic acid are fairly similar chemically (although acetic is a lot more similar to propionic than formic), but I sure as Ed won't try putting 5% formic acid on my fries.

Dude,

Acetic acid is NOT a fatty acid - by definition. The hydrocarbon chain attached to it is what makes a "fat" a "fat". The only thing they share in common is the carboxylic acid group - at least we can agree on that.

The biologic and chemical properties of acetic acid and fatty acids are completely different. The point I was trying to make (which you completely missed), and I'll say again, is that just because they both have a carboxyl group doesn't mean they are similar. There are countless different compounds that have a carboxyl group, and they are not all fatty acids. Carboxyl groups are building blocks. It's what's attached to them (like the benzene ring) that makes them important/different. Many people misunderstand this, yourself included apparently.

I see a remedial chemistry course in your future.

-Dr. Imago

 

[Madalch]

...chemical properties of acetic acid and fatty acids are completely different.

No, they're not. They both form esters, they have very similar Ka values, and they can both be reduced to give aldehydes and alcohols. In what ways are they chemically different?

The point I was trying to make (which you completely missed), and I'll say again, is that just because they both have a carboxyl group doesn't mean they are similar. There are countless different compounds that have a carboxyl group, and they are not all fatty acids. Carboxyl groups are building blocks. It's what's attached to them (like the benzene ring) that makes them important/different. Many people misunderstand this, yourself included apparently.

Carboxylic acid groups are not mere "building blocks", they're functional groups- they're the specific arrangment of atoms that give rise to distinct patterns of reactivity which make compounds that contain them different from compounds which do not have them. Acetic acid and fatty acids both contain the carboxylic acid group, and no other functional group. Which is why they're pretty chemically similar.

If you start attaching benzene rings to the molecule, then you're adding another functional group, and that will add another dimension to the reactivity of the molecule.

But simply lengthening the carbon chain (replacing a methyl group with an ethyl, or a propyl) is not adding a functional group- it's just adding another methylene "building block" which will not dramatically affect the chemical or physical properties of the compound.

I see a remedial chemistry course in your future.

If you sign up for it, I'll teach it.

 

[JJM]

The distinction between acetic acid and fatty acids is arbitrary. It is based on physical properties (chain length and water solubility, which go together- the longer the acid the less water-soluble), and some practical observations.

As a practical matter, fatty acids are found in fats (triacylglycerides); offhand, I guess that would make the cutoff C12 acid. (Acetic acid has a chain length of 2.) On the other hand, the C8 acid is "very slightly soluble" in water (Merck Index), so one must decide what that means and whether it is a fatty acid.

Another aspect of the definition of "fatty acid" is medium to long chain, even numbered, acids. Acetic acid is the shortest possible (at C2); so, no matter how one defines "medium," actic acid does not qualify.

The bottom line is that, although the dividing line between ordinary and fatty acids is arbitrary, acetic acid is not a fatty acid.

 

[Lucky]

The distinction between acetic acid and fatty acids is arbitrary. It is based on physical properties (chain length and water solubility, which go together- the longer the acid the less water-soluble), and some practical observations.

As a practical matter, fatty acids are found in fats (triacylglycerides); offhand, I guess that would make the cutoff C12 acid. (Acetic acid has a chain length of 2.) On the other hand, the C8 acid is "very slightly soluble" in water (Merck Index), so one must decide what that means and whether it is a fatty acid.

Another aspect of the definition of "fatty acid" is medium to long chain, even numbered, acids. Acetic acid is the shortest possible (at C2); so, no matter how one defines "medium," actic acid does not qualify.

The bottom line is that, although the dividing line between ordinary and fatty acids is arbitrary, acetic acid is not a fatty acid.

It's not that simple.

"Short-chain fatty acid" (SCFA) is a standard term in medicine. It includes acetate.

Madalch is completely correct that SCFAs differ from medium- and long-chain fatty acids only in the length of their chains. They do have some similar chemical properties, but it makes sense to differentiate the short-chain group, because of their associated metabolic and medical significance.

The issue is whether you consider that the term "fatty acid" has now been extended to mean all open-chain moncarboxylic acids, including the short-chain ones that are soluble in water (because of the short chain), and therefore have no "fatty" properties. Obviously it has in that the term "short-chain fatty acid" exists, but I think I'd agree that an unqualified "fatty acid" wouldn't generally be taken as including the short-chain group. However, it's going too far to say that including SCFAs in the term "fatty acid" is incorrect.

 

[JJM]

It's not that simple.

"Short-chain fatty acid" (SCFA) is a standard term in medicine. It includes acetate.

Now you are introducing a new term (with a new definition), with which I have no problem.

{snip} ut I think I'd agree that an unqualified "fatty acid" wouldn't generally be taken as including the short-chain group. However, it's going too far to say that including SCFAs in the term "fatty acid" is incorrect.

I think you meant "including 'fatty acid' in the term 'short chain fatty acid'." All that matters is that you have a proper definition for the term (SCFA). It does not alter the fact that acetic acid is not a 'fatty acid,' whereas it is an SCFA.