Vietnam and Iraq

[a_unique_person]

Time to bite the bullet.

Will the war in Iraq fail because the US government tied the hands of the military for stupid, political reasons, and because the liberal press wants Dubya to fail?

Time will tell.

 

[Luke T.]

Quack. Quack. Quack.

 

[Luke T.]

Quagmire. Quagmire. Quagmire.

 

[Tmy]

How is the military tied down???

You mean cause they cant just run around killing whoever gets in their way. Well if you go in with the intent of ridding a despot, you cant start acting like one. That defeats the whole purpose of the invasion.

 

[a_unique_person]

By any standards, it is already a failure. It's just that due to modern communications we can tell this much earlier than before.

The polls say 60% of Iraqis feel they are worse off now than under Saddam, but that it was worth it because Saddam is now gone.

What does that tell you.

60% of Iraqis want things to improve pretty damn quickly, because things were bad enough under Saddam as it was.

40% think that they are pretty pissed off either way. 40% is a lot of people, and it is way to many to kill with C-130s. Therefore, there will always be a lot of people out there who want to cause as much trouble as they can. And even if you did kill them all, a large part of the 60% left are really going to be pissed off.

Now, the problem is not that the military have their hands tied, (well, it looks like they won't be allowed to torture too many prisoners from now on), but that even if they didn't and they already did, military might is not going to win anything, unless you use it to kill millions of people, and if you do, then you lose anyway. That is the lesson of Vietnam, only some people don't want to learn it.

 

[corplinx]

comparisons to vietnam are getting very tiresome

 

[c0rbin]

The polls say 60% of Iraqis feel they are worse off now than under Saddam, but that it was worth it because Saddam is now gone.

What does that tell you.

It tells me that off the 5 Iraqis polled, 3 feel that thet are worse off now than under Saddam...

Time will tell, my cyber-arm-chair general. Time will tell.

 

[Kodiak]

By any standards, it is already a failure.

Thank you. I love such declaritive statements.

How about this standard?

Number of coalition casualties (dead and wounded) in Iraq since the beginning of the invasion until today, April 29th, 2004.

Compare that with:

1) Same time period in the European theater of WWII.

2) Same time period in the Pacific theater of WWII.

3) Same time period of the Korean War.

4) Same time period of the Vietnam War.


A failure you say, a_u_p?

By ANY standards?

 

[Tmy]

Big difference. The Iraqi war is "over". We defeated the army and caught Saddam.

Plus we were liberators supposed to be "welcomed as heros" by the people. Lets compare how many US troops were killed by Frenchman after we liberated France from the Nazis.

 

[Luke T.]

The polls say 60% of Iraqis feel they are worse off now than under Saddam, but that it was worth it because Saddam is now gone.

What polls?

40% think that they are pretty pissed off either way. 40% is a lot of people, and it is way to many to kill with C-130s. Therefore, there will always be a lot of people out there who want to cause as much trouble as they can. And even if you did kill them all, a large part of the 60% left are really going to be pissed off.

Interesting. You assume all 40% want to take up arms against us. Does that mean everybody who is pissed off at Bush in America is ready to take up arms, too? Or are Iraqis a different species?

Now, the problem is not that the military have their hands tied, (well, it looks like they won't be allowed to torture too many prisoners from now on), but that even if they didn't and they already did, military might is not going to win anything, unless you use it to kill millions of people, and if you do, then you lose anyway. That is the lesson of Vietnam, only some people don't want to learn it.

You think millions of people will need to be killed in Iraq for the U.S. to accomplish its goals there?

 

[Kodiak]

Big difference. The Iraqi war is "over". We defeated the army and caught Saddam.

Plus we were liberators supposed to be "welcomed as heros" by the people. Lets compare how many US troops were killed by Frenchman after we liberated France from the Nazis.

You either have a short or a selective memory. I recall hundreds of Iraqis from the Shia south to the Kurdish north, celebrating our victory, hugging soldiers, toppling statues, and waving American flags.

I do not find it surprising that Islamic foreign jihadists, Iraqi militant fundamentalists, and Saddam/Baathist loyalists are less civilized than even the suicidal defeated Japanese and the genocidal defeated Nazis.



a_u_p said ANY standard. I showed him otherwise...

 

[corplinx]

Lets compare how many US troops were killed by Frenchman after we liberated France from the Nazis.

Have you ever read about the problems we had with the French communists during the French liberation? Its amazing that we didnt fight a mini-war with them.

 

[UndercoverElephant]

The Iraqi war is "over". ]

 

[Luke T.]

60% of Iraqis want things to improve pretty damn quickly, because things were bad enough under Saddam as it was.

Those are quite the conclusions you are making on this "poll" you speak of.

"Improve pretty damn quickly." How realistic!

 

[rikzilla]

That is the lesson of Vietnam, only some people don't want to learn it.

Omigawd! AUP and Teddy ChappaKennedy are right!

Compare: Iraq and Vietnam

Both are foreign countries!....check!
Both have an "i" in their names!.....check
Both wars were supported, then opposed by JF Kerry! ...check
Both wars were opposed by smelly hippies and socialists! ...check



-z

 

[Tmy]

You either have a short or a selective memory. I recall hundreds of Iraqis from the Shia south to the Kurdish north, celebrating our victory, hugging soldiers, toppling statues, and waving American flags.

I do not find it surprising that Islamic foreign jihadists, Iraqi militant fundamentalists, and Saddam/Baathist loyalists are less civilized than even the suicidal defeated Japanese and the genocidal defeated Nazis.



a_u_p said ANY standard. I showed him otherwise...

Propaganda.

A few Palistians cheering 911 = all arabs celebrated the terror attacks.

A few Iraqis knock down a Saddam statue = All Iraqis love us.

I dont by that tripe that all the problems are being caused by outsiders and Saddam loyalists. Thats bullflop.

 

[Kodiak]

Propaganda.

A few Palistians cheering 911 = all arabs celebrated the terror attacks.

A few Iraqis knock down a Saddam statue = All Iraqis love us.

I dont by that tripe that all the problems are being caused by outsiders and Saddam loyalists. Thats bullflop.

Your first comment is a simple strawman.

Secondly, I have at least twenty friends, colleagues, and family in Iraq right now. They've ALL remarked on the initial celebration after Saddam's overthrow, the constant thanks, praise, support, and gift-giving made by many citizens from many different parts of Iraq, and the renewed rejoicing when Saddams sons were killed and when Saddam himself was finally captured.

Thirdly, I also included Iraqi militant fundmentalists. What evidence do you possess that leads you to consider both media and Pentagon reports to be "tripe" and "bullflop"?

Is it your contention that it is the average Iraqi "John and Jane Q. Public" firing machine guns and RPG's at coalition forces?

 

[Tmy]

What evidence do you possess that leads you to consider both media and Pentagon reports to be "tripe" and "bullflop"?

Is it your contention that it is the average Iraqi "John and Jane Q. Public" firing machine guns and RPG's at coalition forces?

I have problems believing the govt considering the history of the Whitehouse bullflopitude when it comes to Iraq.

Toss in random stories of soilders saying things are worse than they appear in the media. The fact that the insurgency is widespread, and that the polls show a lg % off unhappy Iraqi I make the not so large leap that average Iraqis are causing problems.

 

[Peskanov]

To tell the truth, the famous images of the USA tank breaking saddam's statue, while a crowd of Iraqis cheers, looked carefully prepared propaganda to me. A small square, strongly guarded by marines, a few hundreds Iraqis, and the USA army doing the task of breaking the symbols.
It didn't look like all the population was in the streets celebrating the liberation, and I am not sure a majority of Iraqis felt that way.

Remenbering the recent story of my country, I suspect there is probably an very big part of the population which formed part of Saddam's system, and now both followers and opositors look to each other with fear and suspicion, waitting the next step to react.

You can't "liberate" a country which is not prepared for it, without a good dose of terrorism (or even guerrilla) afterwards.

 

[Kodiak]

I have problems believing the govt considering the history of the Whitehouse bullflopitude when it comes to Iraq.

Toss in random stories of soilders saying things are worse than they appear in the media. The fact that the insurgency is widespread, and that the polls show a lg % off unhappy Iraqi I make the not so large leap that average Iraqis are causing problems.

I have stories that counter your stories.

People driving away from gas pumps without paying in the US is currently widespread. Does that mean the average American is stealing gas?

I'm sure polls would show that a large percentage of Americans are unhappy about taxes. Does that mean the average American is going to "cause problems"?

C'mon, Tmy...