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VFF Preliminary Kidney Detection Test

Please suggest what would be a better procedure than passing the answer sheet to an attending skeptic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4988696#post4988696

5. When all volunteers have been examined VfF decides which one she thinks has only one kidney and writes the appropriate number on a card which she seals inside an envelope. She then joins the volunteers, adjudicator and observers and places the envelope on a table in clear view.

This is why I stopped trying to help you. Instead of taking my simple protocol and improving it with the help of the knowledgable people here, you have butchered it to the point where it is virtually useless.
 
It was just a check to see how I would do with a fabric screen. It was by no means a Preliminary test, which will be what I do before the official IIG test ...
Thank you for confirming that after nine months of 'studies' you are now seeking help with a 'preliminary' test and not the 'real' IIG test.

Yes, nine months later and you are further away from a real test than when you joined JREF forums.

Wow! Looks like I've been accepted into the VFF fan club. Do I get a badge?
 
People will be charged an entry fee of perhaps $10 ...

Suggested admission fees for Kidney Detection Tests:

At home pre-preliminary test - FREE
Preliminary test - $10 to include free kidney enumeration
IIG test non-MDC prelim - $50 to include free kidney enumeration for your other kidney (subject to availability)
IIG test MDC prelim - $100 to include free gender identification via Vibrational Vision(Algebraic)
JREF MDC - $1,000 to include free migraine cure and a nice cup of tea
 
A conference room will be booked and I will advertise the event at least with New York Skeptics and Universities. At least one New York Skeptic needs to be involved to ensure that the rules are being followed. People will be charged an entry fee of perhaps $10 that will cover the conference room and travel costs for those involved: VFF and the volunteers. And the remaining money will be donated to the kidney donor foundation in gratitude of their participation.


So it begins.

I'm afraid this little paragraph is going to tip a lot of people off to what's actually going on here, VFF. We shall see.
 
Oh my God! I leave this thread for a few hours and it gets even more ludicrous.
Anita, let me be as clear about this as I possible can.
A proper scientific protocol, does, not, DOES NOT have a paying audience.Ditch that immediately, it is ridiculous.
How can you even pretend to have an interest in science when everything you do and say is so unscientific.
If you want to perform on stage in front of people go to stage school. This no longer has anything to do with science.
Your latest protocol is simply laughable.
You should ask your lecturers hypotheticallly what they would think of someone who proposed such nonsense instead of a scientific test. See their reaction.
Dreadful (but it does very much confirm the suspicions many people have had for a while)
 
I am contacting a national kidney donor foundation and asking whether they would like to take part in this test by assisting me in finding past kidney donors who would be willing to volunteer for this test.


r u srs?

Do you have any concept of medical confidentiality at all?

These are the types of statement that turn "naivety" into "public risk".

The public will be informed. See sig.
 
I thihnk that trying to turn it into a paying spectable will put volunteers off. Of course Connie Soon was happy to be tested in front of a crowd and the JREF did charge for this as just one part of the TAM attendence experience yet her test subjects were playing cards. The two of hearts isn't going to be put off by the crowds.

Also the audience at Connies event thought it took too long and was rather boring and tedious when a thousand to one shot was promised, so I suspect that you're not going to find too many takers to watch you stare at ten people's backs for up to 4 hours in an attempt to breaks odds of a mere one in ten.

Unfortunately the most compelling reason not to open the event to the public is that it's an uncontrolled variable which opens the door to both deliberate fraud and accidental information leakage. Your protocol very wisely suggested that you shouldn't be present whilst the test subject enters the room and takes their seat. Would you also have an audience full of potential accomplices file out each time you needed to change test subjects. If not then what of the possibility that one of them might communicate something to you?
 
I am contacting a national kidney donor foundation and asking whether they would like to take part in this test by assisting me in finding past kidney donors who would be willing to volunteer for this test.

Donor information is confidential. A national foundation isn't going to 'assist' you with revealing personal information about past donors so they can be contacted by some narcissist looking for attention.
 
Claim: Detecting whether a person has one or two kidneys.

Conditions: All I do is look at the person with my eyes. The distance between me and the person is 3 feet. I only see the back of the person. The person's head, neck, arms, and body beneath pelvis are screened off. The person's back need not be bare and the person is wearing a shirt of their choice. The person is seated during the test and I am seated during the test.

I require normal room temperature and not heavily air conditioned. The test will take place indoors and with normal lighting. I require no speaking with the person or other interaction such as touching. I need no prior information about the person. I ask for 15 minutes of time to see each person. Pen and paper so that I can take notes on my perceptions.

There are no other conditions that would affect the performance of my claim. I have no additional requirements other than those given here.


I'll just finish it up for you then.


Claim: Detecting whether a person has one or two kidneys.

Conditions: All I do is look at the person with my eyes.

Execution: Realise that the conditions render the claim impossible.

Result: A new understanding of cognitive dissonance.​


I guess that about wraps it up then. Kewl.
 
Originally Posted by Kariboo View Post
Have you checked with ultrasound people in San Diego if they even do this? There is a difference for paying out of pocket for a medically necessary ultrasound (uninsured) and just having one for fun. I am doubtful you can just call and arrange one for whatever reason. Please check this before you continue with this in your protocol. For instance I couldn't have an ultrasound here without being referred by an MD.
This is a Preliminary (Practice) test. If one of the two-kidney persons in fact would be born without a kidney, then according to my claim I would detect the target person and the person born with one kidney. I will write down all persons I think have one kidney and even if we don't have an ultrasound on an alleged two-kidney person I've picked then it would be very interesting if the target person was not on my list.

Yes, not what I asked. Have you contacted an imaging lab to ask if they do ultrasounds just for fun and education? Do they have waiting lists? how long for the results? Do you need a referral. Because if so it CAN NOT be part of your design

Originally Posted by Kariboo View Post
How do you know this beforehand? If you include this part in your protocol there are 2 options (well 3 really). 1. There are no conditions that are averse to you. 2) there ARE conditions that are averse to you and then the test will have to be canceled, not a great idea. 3) You are ok in the beginning but get tired/nauseous during the test. The test will have to be canceled. Since this has happened before how do you know it won't happen again? If you know beforehand that you are able to sign this declaration then why include it? Also how can you be sure beforehand, excluding just wishful thinking.
I will sign a statement before beginning the test, and then before seeing each person and after seeing each person, and then again after having seen all ten persons. It's ok, all it takes is a signature and a statement.


Yes, not what I asked. What if you don't feel well??? what if you get tired, nauseous? Would they have to cancel the test??

How do you know beforehand that you are able to sign if in the past you have never been able to test for this long?

Originally Posted by Kariboo View Post
So what is your timeline? If IIG is planning this test before the end of the year you will have to plan YOUR test before that. You also stated that you would like IIG to use info from YOUR test to adjust theirs so they won' t be able to get that going before you conclude your test. Not to mention the time it generally takes for you to report back (how are you doing with the scans of that FACT study btw?). When do you suggest you have your pre pre test?
If the IIG test will take place before this Preliminary (Practice) test then that is ok. The main objective of the test we are discussing here is to get practice and experience. The IIG have not requested that I have this Preliminary test, they have only recommended it.
No the IIG want you to do the test BEFORE theirs so you can iron out any kinks (as in a workable protocol). What you just wrote is nonsense. Why do a pre test AFTER a test??

The scans are sitting here on the desk while I am discussing the Preliminary (Practice) kidney test with you all, and while I am not sitting here I am studying for my Physics classes this Fall.

Here's an idea: Spent about 10 minutes of your busy day and scan those puppies and post them. Ah who am I kidding. You will NEVER scan them... why: you came in 3rd of 4 people in finding medical information by looking at people. scanning them in would make it official that you can't do what you claim.
 
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I think any 1/10 test has to be abandoned simply because there is no viable way to scale it up to 1/1000.

Putting aside the difficulties in obtaining a sufficient number of volunteers (including at least 3 people without kidneys) to properly perform the test, there is no way a 13 hour test will be accepted. That is well beyond the time limit placed under the MDC.

I would also point out that a reason for past non-successes is claimed fatigue. And despite this, we want a 13 hour protocol? Madness.

If some sort of screen or curtain cannot be used to shorten the test protocol, I see this all as a non-starter. Even if VFF needed more time for each "scan" with a screen, the lower number of necessary repetitions would overall seem to save a lot of time.
 
I think any 1/10 test has to be abandoned simply because there is no viable way to scale it up to 1/1000.

Except maybe doing it three times ina row. Just like the Connie Soone test.

Putting aside the difficulties in obtaining a sufficient number of volunteers (including at least 3 people without kidneys) to properly perform the test, there is no way a 13 hour test will be accepted. That is well beyond the time limit placed under the MDC.

Not aware of any time limit. Can to one trial on monday one trial on tuesday and a final one on wednesday. I see nothing in the rules against that.

I would also point out that a reason for past non-successes is claimed fatigue. And despite this, we want a 13 hour protocol? Madness.

Looks like 13 hour protocol was your idea. Don't see VFF endorsing that one right now.

If some sort of screen or curtain cannot be used to shorten the test protocol, I see this all as a non-starter. Even if VFF needed more time for each "scan" with a screen, the lower number of necessary repetitions would overall seem to save a lot of time.

Can only test the applicants claim, not the claim we'd like them to have.
 
So after 250-some posts across seven pages discussing Anita's kidney counting test, all the evidence we've accumulated so far supports this conclusion: Anita is wholly unwilling to perform any such test in a legitimate, reasonable way, and it will likely never happen. It almost certainly will never happen in a way that produces useable information about the claim. But on the plus side? Anita is doing a great job of maintaining her 100% failure rate.
 
Failure.gif


QFT
 
Except maybe doing it three times ina row. Just like the Connie Soone test.

. . .which led to the 13 hour figure given by VFF earlier in this thread if she had to repeat the test 3 times.

Not aware of any time limit. Can to one trial on monday one trial on tuesday and a final one on wednesday. I see nothing in the rules against that.

A recent thread involving Edge's dowsing claims indicated the JREF wouldn't accept a test last over something like 8 hours, but that is admittedly second-hand. Even without it, spreading out a test into 3 days (with possibilities for information leakage) and VFF's problems with fatigue seem large hurdles.

Looks like 13 hour protocol was your idea. Don't see VFF endorsing that one right now.

That was the length of time she indicated she would need to run the test 3 times. Not my figure.


Can only test the applicants claim, not the claim we'd like them to have.

I understand. Thus the phrasing indicating "if" we can't use a screen, the protocol seems unworkable.
 
A recent thread involving Edge's dowsing claims indicated the JREF wouldn't accept a test last over something like 8 hours, but that is admittedly second-hand. Even without it, spreading out a test into 3 days (with possibilities for information leakage) and VFF's problems with fatigue seem large hurdles.

I do try to keep up with some of the protocol negotiations but I've not followed that one. Just scanning it now it doens't seem to be any staffers imposing a time limit but a forum member sying that the JREF won't accept a protocol over 8 hours and sepeately that a test that atkes longer than 8 hours would me added expenses for the claimaint in housing the observers overnight. The former I dont' think is actually backed up by the challenge rules and the later is the claimants concern as they will have to foot the bill.

I do believe that problems susch as infomraiton leakage can be addressed.

I can't answer for her but I'd imagine that a full night's sleep would help a lot with the fatigue.

Although it would appear to take a long time it is a workable protocol. That Anitia wants to give it a trial run beforehand is commendable. How many applicants have we asked - have you tried this under these test conditions already. I'm always reminded of the Simpsons quote

Millhouse: What are they saying
Bart: I can't tell
Millhouse: I thought you said you could read lips.
Bar: Well I assumed that I could.

At least Anita seems to be aware of the possibility that she could set all this up and it wouldn't work, so best to start small(er).

It's a small thing but if the test goes ahead there's a 90% chance (If chance is all there is) that she'll tell someone that they only have one kidney which will be falsified by ultrasound.

Of course I'm sure Anita could find some form of words that will render her prediction to be somewhat non-commital to mitigate this possibility. She could even flat out say that she couldnt see anything for anyone on that day just to preserve her claim to have never been falsified (Study Data?) but wouldn't it be interesting if she was convinced that she'd detected a missing kidney and shown that she was wrong.
 
Replies

Why are you going out of state? It makes no sense.
Did you forget the smiley or are you being serious?
Get Dr. Carlson, one other person, and a screen. You can do the test with virtually no cost and be done in a few hours. I already gave you the protocol. Are you not listening?
Like I said, out of state because my state is where I live, work, and study and a paranormal investigation is not part of my professional life and I'd like to keep them separate. I am being serious about my plans. And I have already determined that I will not have a full-body screen on the test.

You really think people will pay to see? You have no credentials, this isnt going to work.
Alright, paying will be optional. :)

Why should they pay for your travel costs?
Because my funds are very low right now, I am a college student without a work permit. :( If someone would like to see this psychic claimant fail live, then how about contributing to making it all happen? But I've just decided that paying is entirely optional. And no one has to come and see it if they don't want to. I just thought this was interesting. :(

*Note: The money would only be used to cover my travel expenses, the conference room, or other expenses with arranging the test, and the remainder would be donated to a kidney foundation. By no means would I be getting paid for this. It is a non-profit paranormal investigation kind of thing. Oh, and I wouldn't even be in charge of the money. A Skeptic would, and we can all trust Skeptics.

Your claim is imprecise. You are not seeing the back of the person. As you describe it you are not seeing the person at all. You are seeing the general shape of their body through their clothing. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that a screen could be used.

If so, this test is a slam dunk. You could do it at the next F-A-C-T meeting.
No UncaYimmy, I already determined that my perceptions are reduced when there is a full-body screen. Let's say it is a true ability, then we don't really know what kind of "vibrational information" I'd be detecting. What if it is thermal information (heat patterns)? If any way possible, there will be no screen. Accept the limitations of my claimed ability and let's work from that. How about the underground bunker?

Why does it have to be kidneys? Why can't it be tonsils?
My boyfriend has had his tonsils removed and I can't quite detect that. Kidneys are large and I feel them easily.

there's no symptoms of missing tonsils
There's no symptoms of missing kidney.

a doctor can simply look down every volunteer's throat in a jiffy and tell who has tonsils and who doesn't.
Medical documentation can prove who has had a kidney removed. If me and participating skeptics aren't allowed to review medical documentation then I will go through the expense of having a doctor review and verify their documentation.

You wouldn't need a screen because people without tonsils look exactly like people with tonsils.
I wouldn't need a screen with missing kidney because people without a kidney look exactly like people with both kidneys.

There's no need for ultrasounds or a widespread search to find people who are missing their tonsils. Tonsillectomies are really common.
Well, it's the ailment I've chosen. I'm not as good with tonsillectomies.

Of course, in being common, tonsillectomies aren't very grand, are they? Not much pizzazz in a tonsil, is there? There's a certain je ne sais quoi in a kidney, a sort of life-threatening romanticism that a plebeian tonsil couldn't hope to match, I suppose. There's no life-threatening illnesses or poignant acts of altruism involved in tonsillectomies after all.
Actually, I was thinking about it and persons who've donated a kidney were not the ones who had an illness, and although donating a kidney is still a sensitive, personal and emotional experience, it would be even less moral to involve or exploit persons on the test who have had an illness. Such as persons who've had a tonsillectomy.

(...) When you've made up your mind...
GeeMack, I've outlined my claim and the requirements for you and I am now expecting you to share your suggested test protocol. If you still won't do it then I fail to see what your problem is. I have done what you asked.

Uncle Yimmy's protocol up-thread would be viable but Anita igonores or doesn't seem to understand it. (...)
I have determined that my claim doesn't perform as well with a full-body screen. The screen can not be used. How about the underground bunker.

As a matter of fact, your protocol, using screens, would be just as efficient on tonsils as it would be on kidneys.
As a matter of fact I am not nearly as good with tonsils or screens as I am with kidneys and no screen. We have to work based on what my claim is and how I claim to perform it. How about the underground bunker?
 
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Because my funds are very low right now, I am a college student without a work permit.

How were you going to finance at least two trips to California ?


____________________________

Anita,
You did not address the problem of locating volunteers who are missing a kidney.
 
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I am a college student without a work permit.

*Note: The money would only be used to cover my travel expenses, the conference room, or other expenses with arranging the test, and the remainder would be donated to a kidney foundation. By no means would I be getting paid for this.

Employment is any type of work performed or services provided in exchange for money, tuition, fees, books, supplies, room, food or any other benefit.

So any money going to you for any service would be in violation of your lack of work permit and can get you in trouble with the INS.

If you are on a F1 visa you are allowed up to 20 hours of work weekly on campus. Not off campus.
 

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