Jaggy Bunnet
Philosopher
- Joined
- May 16, 2003
- Messages
- 6,241
Bowser said:
If its homeopathic, surely giving it to him twice makes it LESS effective, not more?
Veterinary homoeopathy illegal?
- Thread starter Rolfe
- Start date
-
- Tags
- homeopathy illegal veterinary
If its homeopathic, surely giving it to him twice makes it LESS effective, not more?
Rolfe
Adult human female
An owner is not obliged to accept recommended treatment, and may refuse treatment. However, if by doing that they might be construed as "causing unnecessary suffering" they could be prosecuted for that. The alternative of course would be to elect to have the animal put down.Lothian said:
What about a vet who fails to advise treatment for a condition where an effective treatment is available? I think that would come under negligence, and the owner would have to sue for damages (to their property, the animal). Or if the situation was extreme enough, the vet could be prosecuted for causing unnecessary suffering.
But none of that has anything to do with medicines legislation, which is what we're talking about. The point is that the Chief Executive of the VMD has explicitly declared that homoeopathic remedies are covered by the cascade, and therefore can only be used if they are authorised. They are not authorised, therefore they may not legally be used by veterinary surgeons.
Yes, I did wonder if there might be some sort of paradoxical get-out-of-jail-free card in that since homoeopathic remedies contain no active ingredient, they are not covered by the cascade. However, this new statement has closed that potential loophole, which is why I find it such an interesting little snippet.
(I think the point probably hinges on the fact that therapeutic claims are made for the stuff. As soon as you postulate a medicinal effect for a preparation, you automatically bring it under the remit of safety and residues and so on.)
Rolfe.
Dragon
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,639
And it's illegal to treat animals unless you are a vet, yes?
(I know there are a few exceptions but the magic water/sugar pills aren't included)
Where will this end, Rolfe? Do the homeo-vets have enough wiggle-room (or political clout) to get out of this?
My suspicion is that both the regulators and the homeovets will solve the problem by whistling loudly and looking the other way, hoping nobody makes a fuss about this unfortunate faux pas. In other words, they may simply choose not to enforce the law against homeopaths.
Another possibility is that homeopaths will now try to use political clout to get homeopathic remedies onto the cascade. If this happens, it will be for purely political reasons, and your regulators will probably use the "it doesn't hurt if used in conjunction with real medicine" excuse - but you will hear no end of howling from homeopaths about the British government recognizing homeopathy as real, if it does come out that way.
Neither of those outcomes would reflect well, unfortunately.
Another possibility is that homeopaths will now try to use political clout to get homeopathic remedies onto the cascade. If this happens, it will be for purely political reasons, and your regulators will probably use the "it doesn't hurt if used in conjunction with real medicine" excuse - but you will hear no end of howling from homeopaths about the British government recognizing homeopathy as real, if it does come out that way.
Neither of those outcomes would reflect well, unfortunately.
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
geni said:
Yeah, I'd suggest automatic rifles and hand grenades, myself.
Just kidding!!
Hmm, a knock at the door. They're all wearing black coats. Anyone know what "ATF" stands for?
*bang*
*crunch*
*thump*
......
Rolfe
Adult human female
Well, yes, that first sentence is true and rather limits wiggle-room in general terms.Dragon said:
But.
My view is that the way to play this is to concentrate not on the homoeopaths' practices, but on the advertising and promotion. In practical terms I really can't see the VMD coming the heavy on people using EDTA-tris (the respectable but unapproved treatment the original letter referred to), but what happened was that an article in which the author recommended the treatment got smacked. Similarly, I think it's unlikely that invdividual vets practising homoeopathy in the privacy of their own consulting rooms are going to get persecuted.
However, the homoeopaths
- have a society to promote their methods
- run "academic" courses promoting their methods
- advertise these courses in the veterinary press
- award "qualifications" to those who write the expected answers in their exams
- have persuaded the Registrar to list the holders of these qualifications in the Register
- write articles about how great homoeopathy is for the veterinary popular press
- publish papers in the homoeopathic journals
- lecture to veterinary undergraduates.
Yes, a fuss needs to be made, but if the fuss-pots have the law on their side then theu're likley to be listened to.
I can't see the VMD letting homoeopathic remedies into the cascade now, after that statement. There's no way on God's green earth a homoeopathic remedy could actually fulfil the criteria for authorisation (it's been tried, believe me), and it would have to be an exemption. But to get that through now, after the statement has been made, and in a profession where everybody knows what Avogadro's number is and most of them think homoeopathy is witchcraft, seems unlikely. After all, it would amount to saying that vets could use sugar pills in preference to approved affective drugs against conditions for which these drugs have specific authorisation. When you can get struck off simply for giving a sheep wormer to a cat? No, not likely.
So, this needs a bit of stirring, but there are quite a few people up for it. Denied the oxygen of publicity by having everyone aware that this is just as naughty as the legendary cat worming sin, I think the homoeopaths might find life a little dull, no?
Rolfe.
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2003
- Messages
- 28,209
which can just be renamed the socirety for understanding homeopathyRolfe said:
So they lose goverment funding. They can always run private course not to mention all the homeopaths who are bascily slef taught
Since "I've seen it work" apears to be the main recurting method for homeopathy I can't see this having much effect
Anyone can offer a qualifcation.
I suspect the homeopath grave vine will get by without it
They will probbaly just start writing in the abstract
How many people read those journals? I know my uni doesn't sucribe to them.
How many people attend these lectures?
Rolfe
Adult human female
OK, be pessimistic, you grouch. We'll see how we get on. If the homoeopaths are reduced to a grapevine, we won't be doing badly.
Rolfe.
Rolfe.
There is nothing stopping you lot setting up the 'Anti-Homeopathy Illuminati Society' and making each other members and fellows .... If the Homeos can get the various regular medical bodies to include their random alphabetical designations on the register then denying you lot would be discrimination
Dr Rolfe Tabitha Cat FRCVS FAHIS
Maybe someone can rearrange it to make an exciting rude word?
Dr Rolfe Tabitha Cat FRCVS FAHIS
Maybe someone can rearrange it to make an exciting rude word?
Rolfe
Adult human female
Rolfe
Adult human female
They won't do it. Quite right too. They won't stick VetMFHom or VetFFHom on the registry entries either, thank the Lord.Benguin said:
What they have done is created a separate list of these diplomates elsewhere in the Register. One day, we might get round to demanding the same rights for voodooists....
Rolfe.
Rolfe,
A couple questions.
Is vet homeopathy widespread in your country?
Would it be illegal for a Vet to prescribe a medication (as indicated by the cascade) and also to give a homeopathic remedy at the same time?
Is it illegal for an owner to give their pet a remedy?
A couple questions.
Is vet homeopathy widespread in your country?
Would it be illegal for a Vet to prescribe a medication (as indicated by the cascade) and also to give a homeopathic remedy at the same time?
Is it illegal for an owner to give their pet a remedy?
Rolfe
Adult human female
1. No, not very. There are only 41 vets who hold homoeopathic "qualifications", and about 140 who are interested enough to belong to their club, out of about 20,000 vets in the country altogether. They don't half make a big noise though!Barbrae said:
2. Yes. The legislation isn't concerned with ensuring that the correct treatment is given, it is concerned with making sure that unapproved medicines are not given.
3. No. Homoeopathic remedies are not prescription-only, and so may be legally purchased by the general public. And although it is illegal to diagnose and/or treat an animal which doesn't belong to you (or to your employer - that covers stockmen and farm workers), it is perfectly legal for an owner to try to look after their own animal in any way they choose. The only sanction on that would be that if an animal was deemed to be suffering unnecessarily because of a failure to seek professional veterinary attention, the owner would be liable for "causing unnecessary suffering".
Whether it would be legitimate for a vet to conduct (and charge for) a consultation, and then to recommend to the owner that he or she purchase a particular homoeopathic remedy over the counter, I don't know. Possibly. But when it comes to vets diagnosing a defined condition (such as hyperthyroidism) for which there exists a properly approved treatment, and then recommending something other than that treatment, I have my doubts.
Rolfe.
Thanks for the answers.
If there are only 41 vets with homeo qualifications it seems it would be easy enough to stop them - since it is classified as illegal, yes?
DO you happen to know if vets in your country tend to practice both homeopathy and conventional medicine? ARe there any vets that ONLY prescribe homeopathic remedies or say close to 75% of the practice?
If there are only 41 vets with homeo qualifications it seems it would be easy enough to stop them - since it is classified as illegal, yes?
DO you happen to know if vets in your country tend to practice both homeopathy and conventional medicine? ARe there any vets that ONLY prescribe homeopathic remedies or say close to 75% of the practice?
There was one on Randi's documentary about homeopathy here (was it an Horizon one?). If I remember rightly he was using homeopathic remedies in conjunction with conventional stuff.
Someone around here has a transcript of the program ...
Someone around here has a transcript of the program ...
Rolfe
Adult human female
Oh, Mark, with his weirdo ideas about Cushing's disease and his unblinded uncontrolled untested and unfollowed-up "paper" about it. I don't know if he's still talking to me or not since I dragged him into the Alphonse/Sarah saga, and BSM then had a go at what he said there in the pages of a real live journal.Benguin said:
Mark did tell me recently that he'd given up on homoeopathy for Cushing's because the new licensed treatment was so self-evidently efficacious, but then I think he started on about the homoeopathic approach again. Who can say.
Homeopathy: the test.
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Well, it's only just been declared to be a breach of the cascade legislation. Next we find out where they propose to find the loopholes. I doubt if it's possible or even desirable or necessary to stop them anyway. It's the diplomatic immunity which is currently accorded to this unscientific and unapproved treatment which needs to be stopped. If we're going to get smacked for using something as sensible and well-supported by published evidence as EDTA-tris, just because it has no product licence, then why the $%#@ should homoeopaths get away with running training courses and writing articles about equally unapproved and not even faintly supported by published evidence magic sugar pills?Barbrae said:
I really know very little about the practices of homoeopathic vets, other than the combination of nonsense and improbable accounts of miracle cures they regale us with. I imagine very few if any would use homoeopathy exclusively. If Mr. McLeod really did do that, as Wim suggested, he must have had a very exclusive referral practice, seeing only minor, chronic and self-limiting conditions. And of course that was quite a long time ago now, before the cascade legislation and probably before the modern Medicines Act.
Rolfe.
I must say I was somewhat surprised that a vet took the view the placebo effect doesn't apply in animals.
Am I being woo-woo in my belief that horses, cats, dogs do understand enough to know what vets are about? They certainly know what's about to happen when the thermometer comes out ....
Am I being woo-woo in my belief that horses, cats, dogs do understand enough to know what vets are about? They certainly know what's about to happen when the thermometer comes out ....