Venezuela: Democracy in danger?

[DC]

Venezuelan Opposition Attacks Chavistas during Governor’s Swearing in Ceremony

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4096

Cesar Perez Vivas, who was also the general secretary of COPEI, Venezuela’s main Christian democratic party, recently won the governorship in the regional elections of November 23 of last year with 49% of the vote. Various supporters and a range of national governors including the new opposition mayor of Caracas, Antonio Ledezma, attended the ceremony, which took place in the main plaza of the state capital.

Varela called for protection for the workers in the social missions who have lately been attacked by opposition groups and announced that the National Assembly will start an investigation into the aggressions in Tachira.

Immediately after the ceremony in the main plaza, the opposition group beat up people identified as pro-Chavez. The outgoing governor, Ronaldo Blanco was escorted by the National Guard to his vehicle, to protect him from attacks. One 65 year-old woman was stripped of her t-shirt which had a pro-amendment slogan on it, and her other clothing and the opposition members tried to undress 10 other female Barrio Adentro health mission workers.

Shortly after the anouncement that the Chavista lost the regional elections in Caracas, opposition groups atacked social missions in Caracas and harased the people working there.

The western press is quick when critisiing Chavez, but very slow when they should critisie the opposition.

 

[wagnerbl]

Do you think they should criticize the opposition or the people who did this?
It could be planned by that party but without any evidence the western press is not to blame.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

I wondered what it would take for some posters to become concerned about democracy in Venezuela.


Now I know.

 

[DC]

Do you think they should criticize the opposition or the people who did this?
It could be planned by that party but without any evidence the western press is not to blame.

i dont think it was planned by the opposition.
But about western press needing evidence?

they claim things about the new referendum that are not rue and they never back them up.
It went so far that even a local Swiss newspaper blamed Chavez for wanting to remove the term limit and also implyed he wants to be president for live.
with no word they told the reader that he still needs to be elected, that the recallreferendum will not be removed.
but the mainpoint they forgot to mention is. In Switzerland, we also have no termlimit .........

They only report about Venezuela when they can blame something on Chavez.

Western Media does not report about the improvements the Venezuelans brought to theyr democracy, nor the better conditions for the poor, nor about theyr fight against corruption.

even the economist claims Chavez to be corrupt and authocratic. without evidence oc.

 

[DC]

I wondered what it would take for some posters to become concerned about democracy in Venezuela.


Now I know.

fair enough, i thought i use the same propaganda the western media uses

 

[fuelair]

The people who did that should be...adjusted. None of that makes Chavez more than a feces eating dog. Just shows both sides are not democratic. Nothing new there.

 

[DC]

The people who did that should be...adjusted. None of that makes Chavez more than a feces eating dog. Just shows both sides are not democratic. Nothing new there.

how are they not democratic?

i would say they have more democracy than the USA.

 

[DC]

When you are unhappy with Obama, once he is president.
after half of his term is over, can you start a recallreferendumm, so there will be a national vote to kick him out of office or keep him there?

 

[wagnerbl]

i dont think it was planned by the opposition.
But about western press needing evidence?

they claim things about the new referendum that are not rue and they never back them up.
It went so far that even a local Swiss newspaper blamed Chavez for wanting to remove the term limit and also implyed he wants to be president for live.
with no word they told the reader that he still needs to be elected, that the recallreferendum will not be removed.
but the mainpoint they forgot to mention is. In Switzerland, we also have no termlimit .........

They only report about Venezuela when they can blame something on Chavez.

Western Media does not report about the improvements the Venezuelans brought to theyr democracy, nor the better conditions for the poor, nor about theyr fight against corruption.

even the economist claims Chavez to be corrupt and authocratic. without evidence oc.

I agree that the press does avoid the evidence "thing" on a regular basis, but on your first post you are implying that the press is doing the wrong thing by not connecting the act with the opposition. They are correct on this case because there's not an indication where this was planned or not (probably not considering it was the opposition rally they attended).

 

[Tailgater]

However, the general secretary of the new state government has rejected the denunciations that were made, saying “It’s true that there were skirmishes, we won’t deny it, because there was provocation… in a formal event like that the outgoing governor and all the legislators came dressed in red with their insignias of the [United Socialist Party] PSUV, disrespecting the solemnity of the event.”

Judging by the picture of everyone in the red shirts and the acts of people getting their shirts ripped off, it looks more like the Republican Party showing up at Obamas swearing in wearing elephant and anti-Obama shirts. Stuff is gonna happen. Why should the press really care about this outside the region? Maybe the fact that they did not make it a big story and spin it to "Chavez sends in protestors to disrupt swearing in" is evidence that maybe the "western media" just doesn't care as much as you think they do. Fights between avg joes doesn't compare to legislative changes in government.

Re. removing term limits- term limits does not automatically mean he will be president for life, but it is a very popular step to take early on in an attempt to do so. It doesn't take the "western media" to make the assumption that is what he wants. Most westerners could really care less about Chavez, and would even agree with the good hand to the poor, but at what future cost when he's lining his ducks in an all too familiar fashion. If the economy ever struggles and he's sitting on open terms, total government control of media and industries, and beefed up military, I believe it will be a quiet day for people who cheer the good he's done as the reason for letting him have his way.

 

[DC]

Normaly those events are attended by both, supporters of the old man leaving office, and supporters of the new man taking the office.

Would you also agree that Democracy in Switzerland is in Danger?
we have not limited the number of terms one can run. and many many other countrys also have not such limits.

 

[Tailgater]

Normaly those events are attended by both, supporters of the old man leaving office, and supporters of the new man taking the office.

See my example. The losing party doesn't usually show up in full rally/protestor gear without the risk of fighting. See run up to the US election.

Would you also agree that Democracy in Switzerland is in Danger?
we have not limited the number of terms one can run. and many many other countrys also have not such limits.

From what I understand, the president is not a head of state like other countries and is only put in for a year at a time, so that's kind of apple to oranges. I don't want derail the thread about my misunderstanding of the Swiss government though.

It's easy to defend Chavez in individual bits, because there is no country that has not done something he's doing, but when all the fingers are added to the hand, it is historically worrisome. It falls down on the saying "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" Sure, he might go the rest of his life just doing what is best for Venezuala, but his forcast is being predicted like the weather or the stock market based on his trends.

ETA:When people use comparisons to some of the northern European countries that don't face alot of the problems faced in other parts of the world, it's kind of dishonest. Threads about immigration, crime or guns, democracy, social services, Quality of life indexes, etc. These are not fair comparisons.

 

[DC]

See my example. The losing party doesn't usually show up in full rally/protestor gear without the risk of fighting. See run up to the US election.



From what I understand, the president is not a head of state like other countries and is only put in for a year at a time, so that's kind of apple to oranges. I don't want derail the thread about it my misunderstanding of the Swiss government though.

It's easy to defend Chavez in individual bits, because there is no country that has not done something he's doing, but when all the fingers are added to the hand, it is historically worrisome. It falls down on the saying "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" Sure, he might go the rest of his life just doing what is best for Venezuala, but his forcast is being predicted like the weather or the stock market based on his trends.

ETA:When people use comparisons to some of the northern European countries that don't face alot of the problems faced in other parts of the world, it's kind of dishonest. Threads about immigration, crime or guns, democracy, social services, Quality of life indexes, etc. These are not fair comparisons.

well on one hand Switzerland is more democratic, because we have 7 presidents at a time that have the same rights, they are elected for 4 years.
one of the 7 is then elected as head of the 7, but he gets not more power with it, just more representative work, like meeting with other countrys leaders etc.

But there is no rule that would not alow them to run again after they served 2 terms. Makes no sence, when he did a good job and people like him, relect him. (Sorry Michele Calmy-Rey , it is him/her)

Chavez is indeed a single person that is much more powerfull than a swiss Bundesrat.

But on the other hand, he is directly elected by the people. So is the National assembly and other important positions.

that is more democratic than it is in switzerland, we vote for the Natinal assembly, but those do then vote for the Bundesrat.

so in fact Venezuela is more democratic than Switzerland.
Venezuelan people have more direct influence on theyr government, even more than switzerland, that is know for its Direct Democracy.

 

[Tailgater]

I guess that depends on what you consider more democratic, a representative government that helps the minority by placing checks on the majority, or a direct democracy that is the direct will of 50.1% of the people.

 

[DC]

I guess that depends on what you consider more democratic, a representative government that helps the minority by placing checks on the majority, or a direct democracy that is the direct will of 50.1% of the people.

isnt Switzerland known as a Direct Democracy?
yes it is, becuase we the swiss people are powerfull, we have referendum and Volksinitiativen, there is almost nothing we cannot do once we have enough signatures.

Isnt Venezuela know as Chavez's Dictatorship
yes it is, but strange enough the people in Venezuela are, sionce the Bolivarian 1999 Constitution, even more powerfull than the swiss people.

While during the proces of creating theyr new constitution, they took a look at the Swiss constitution and the power the swiss people hold.

And meanwhile more and more of the Swiss left / socialists are now looking to the Venezuelan Constitution and talk about things we should include in ours.


what do you find more democratic, Direct Democracy (50% +1) or representative Democracy?

 

[DC]

I guess that depends on what you consider more democratic, a representative government that helps the minority by placing checks on the majority, or a direct democracy that is the direct will of 50.1% of the people.

thats what they had in Venezuela pre Chavez.
a minority profiting, they majority poor and no future.

they changed it. now the Majority profits. and the most of the former minority went to Miami

 

[Beerina]

Which is more mature and stable against the blowing winds of demagoguery? A system that starts with the observation that a government is, properly speaking, formed by the people and granted certain powers, and none others, and any changes to that require supermajority?

Or a vox populi vox dei system where whoever wins a simple majority (or even just a plurality) assumes all power imaginable?


I'll let you be the judge. Hint: A study of human history is useful.

 

[Beerina]

When you are unhappy with Obama, once he is president.
after half of his term is over, can you start a recallreferendumm, so there will be a national vote to kick him out of office or keep him there?

No. The US constitution does not allow such things. It is very specific on the requirements to be president and to be removed from office. The latter is the usual (death, resignation) accompanied by impeachment by the House followed by removal from office by the Senate (e.g. Clinton was not removed, though he was impeached.)


Unrestricted democracy is not a good thing. It must be tempered with difficult-to-change rules about freedom.

 

[DC]

No. The US constitution does not allow such things. It is very specific on the requirements to be president and to be removed from office. The latter is the usual (death, resignation) accompanied by impeachment by the House followed by removal from office by the Senate (e.g. Clinton was not removed, though he was impeached.)


Unrestricted democracy is not a good thing. It must be tempered with difficult-to-change rules about freedom.

so you had actually no saying about Bush or Clintons impeachment or even removal?

sounds very undemocratic.
but on the other hand, you call your main representant also leader.

we see that a little diffrent, actually we the people are the presidents leaders.

so, in the US, a president can promise change as much he wants, even change you can belive in. should it then turn out that he indeed is not bringing change you belive in, there is nothing the poeple can do about it.

and i thought the USA is a democracy. (just for provocation )

 

[Tailgater]

isnt Switzerland known as a Direct Democracy?
yes it is, becuase we the swiss people are powerfull, we have referendum and Volksinitiativen, there is almost nothing we cannot do once we have enough signatures.

Isnt Venezuela know as Chavez's Dictatorship
yes it is, but strange enough the people in Venezuela are, sionce the Bolivarian 1999 Constitution, even more powerfull than the swiss people.

While during the proces of creating theyr new constitution, they took a look at the Swiss constitution and the power the swiss people hold.

And meanwhile more and more of the Swiss left / socialists are now looking to the Venezuelan Constitution and talk about things we should include in ours.


what do you find more democratic, Direct Democracy (50% +1) or representative Democracy?

Venezuala and Switzerland are nothing like each other and I won't continue down the path of trying to make comparisons between the two. You are demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about in this post. Just like another thread comparing Venezuala to Dubai, it's very easy to break off a piece of the debate and say "look, this is exactly what they are doing here" even though there is nothing even close to comparible about the countries in any other way.