Vatican to excommunicate women priests

[fuelair]

I actually loudly applaud the catholic church and the Vatican handling of the pedophilia affair. I bow to their handling on the catholic priest rule. I invite them to continue on this road, and to do even more !

*clap clap clap*.

As an atheist I can only encourage them on this way. I think rationality will only convince a minority of people, but the church being stuck in the past with a retro-cranial-anal inversion will probably make more people turn away from them than a good dawkin's or Sagan's discourse will....

My belief exactly and very well phrased. Frankly, this first hit me back in the late 50s/early 60s - I do not remember what religious silliness it was (might even have been women as pastors/priests), but it just came to me that that kind of thinking was what was causing people to leave/get upset with church. Cool, thought I. Unfortunately, that takes a long time to truly end religion, but it surely helps!!

 

[Darth Rotor]

(It's not necessarily false, just not logically valid.)

OK.

Your statement: "I don't get the outrage over this. You don't like that rule? Don't be part of that church."

I would be interested in knowing what you meant by this, if it was not intended to exclude non-members from criticizing the church.

I don't understand why you equate criticism with outrage. They are two different things.

I differentiate between criticism, which is analytical, and outrage, which is an emotional response. Need I say any more?

Where is your emotional investment in this, if you are outraged?

To criticize the church for having inane, silly, or unfair practices does not require outrage, nor do I think it called for, particularly in this case. The people involved embarked on these tests of the rules with their eyes fully open. They knew they were testing and breaking the rules.

It is no secret that in the RCC, only a man can be ordained a priest, and technically, only a celibate, unmarried man who has leaped through a number of hoops first.

Unfair? Sure, if you think it ought to be OK for a woman to be a priest.

Happily, there are many Christian sects who have female clergy. I have found in my limited experience with such things that Protestants warmly welcome ex Catholics, but that may be an American thing.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

My belief exactly and very well phrased. Frankly, this first hit me back in the late 50s/early 60s - I do not remember what religious silliness it was (might even have been women as pastors/priests), but it just came to me that that kind of thinking was what was causing people to leave/get upset with church. Cool, thought I. Unfortunately, that takes a long time to truly end religion, but it surely helps!!

I don't think the Pope "gets" that, either.

DR

 

[fuelair]

Also, I am curious about the disagreements with Darth R's points. I did not get from him any idea that out or insiders had no right to criticize, just that the church does things like the church does things. US law certainly has no influence on private organizations (churches) as long as they do not violate the ones like murder, acted on pedophilia and such. Nothing in law requires them to have women priests - and as I said above, I would love to see it drive women out of the church - and men who support them also. I am totally fine with churches following the most ignorant, intolerant, rules they can dream up (that do not involve physical harm to others or certain types of psychologically harmful things - like the scienoproctologists do).

 

[Pardalis]

The outrage is that excommunicating the child molesters and their accomplices among their ranks should be their top priority, that is if they want to act like moral adult men. So far, the Church is nothing more than a club for sexually repressed immature men with no morals of anykind and no integrity.

They're basically afraid of coodies. So much for the father figure.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The outrage is that excommunicating the child molesters and their accomplices among their ranks should be their top priority, that is if they want to act like moral adult men.

I concur with your opinion on that.

So far, the Church is nothing more than a club for sexually repressed immature men with no morals of anykind and no integrity.

The Church isn't just the clergy. The Church Heirarchy, on the other hand, for my money, still doesn't grasp what is worthy in that criticism. They've presented themselves, through their failure to deal with the child abuse problem within the clergy, as a club for sexually repressed men with no integrity. There is no escaping that self inflicted wound, and this is a clear case of the "physician" needing to heal himself.

They're basically afraid of coodies. So much for the father figure.

Now you're being silly. And I think it's spelled cooties.

 

[Damien Evans]

Nevertheless, it's the right one.
No, it's not just slow, it's impotent. Day after day they show no willingness to change.

The 21st century is not going to wait for them any longer. Follow with the times or die (the Church I mean).

We've had it with inane backward rules from the iron age.

Early and Middle Medieval, actually.

 

[Alareth]

Christ also chose men from the Middle East to be His apostles, surely choosing North Americans to be priests goes against Christ's intentions. Excommunicate the Americans!

As Lewis Black once pointed out, all the Apostles were Jewish fishermen. That narrows things down even more.

 

[Darth Rotor]

As Lewis Black once pointed out, all the Apostles were Jewish fishermen. That narrows things down even more.

Jewish fishers of men.

And no, ALL the apostles were not fishermen. Matthew, for instance was a tax collector ...

 

[MG1962]

The outrage is that excommunicating the child molesters and their accomplices among their ranks should be their top priority, .

Why?

 

[Mister Earl]

I have long since given up any hope of the Catholic Church to show anything akin to reason or acceptance of responsibility. Like any group with many members, the top membership is now only concerned with wealth and power.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Why?

May I take this one? (We had some productive discussion on this a few weeks/months back, where Darat provided some very sad info from the recent audit/investigation of this problem in Ireland).

The integrity of the clergy is a non-trivial concern for an organization that seeks to serve and lead people in a particular way. In this case, in the Catholic Christian way. The problem isn't just the various breaches of trust that a given priest or bishop has committed, though its a problem since child abuse/molesting is a serious problem. Each case is a serious crime.

The unaddressed institutional problem, as seen from the outside, is the long term and sustained decision to cover it up, and to fail to address and effectively remedy it. The courses of action taken to date don't inspire in me, and in many others, confidence that the problem of covering up child molestation has been addressed, and internal controls are in place and effective.

That lack of confidence strikes at the core of the position the clergy hold in the RCC: a position of special trust and confidence. The risk for child abuse continuing reduces or removes the trust parents have in the clergy, which either diminishes their effectiveness, or causes the parents to leave the church for another church, or leave the religion altogether. For people who don't much care for the RCC, that may look good, but for the RCC itself, it's organizational suicide.

For the RCC, those last two issues completely undermine its mission of trying to get everyone under one Christian tent. But most importantly, curbing and then ending child abuse by officials of the church has to be done just as curbing sexual harassment had to be done in the Navy.

It's not acceptable for the organization, particularly as it's illegal.

ETA: @ Mister Earl

He may just be blowing smoke, but ... (11 May news article from the Guardian, UK newspaper)

The pope admitted today that the Catholic church was entirely responsible for the child abuse scandal that has spread across Europe, silencing conspiracy theorists in the church as he arrived in Portugal to be met by hundreds of protesters distributing condoms.

In his most strongly worded condemnation of the priests involved in paedophile cases, Pope Benedict said the church's greatest enemy was "sins from within", not the campaigners who have exposed its culture of laxity and secrecy.

"The greatest persecution of the church doesn't come from enemies on the outside but is born from the sins within the church," Benedict told journalists travelling with him to Portugal. "The church needs to profoundly relearn penitence, accept purification, learn forgiveness but also justice."

So he talks the talk, we shall see if he walks the walk.

DR

 

[MG1962]

Darth I hear what you are saying, however I think we are debating two differrent issues. Yes from administrative sense, the Church should make no attempt to interfere or interupt any legal efforts to punish Priests found to be doing the wrong thing

However excommunication is not an administrative issue, it is spiritual. Excommunicating a priest really changes nothing. They will still have the same urges. The difference now (setting aside prison terms) is the Church looses control of the person.

As a priest, they rely on the Church for accomodation, food, the basics of life. Releasing them from the Church gives them a chance to disapear into society, possibly even re-invent themselves and continue their behaviour.

Not all positions within the Catholic Church require a priest to have contact with lay population or children. If once a prision term is completed it is not that hard to find a role for the priest that removes them from the ablity to re-offend, while being able to keep a very tight reign on their life. And maybe (though doubtful) able to rehabilitate them

 

[Darth Rotor]

Darth I hear what you are saying, however I think we are debating two differrent issues. Yes from administrative sense, the Church should make no attempt to interfere or interupt any legal efforts to punish Priests found to be doing the wrong thing

Right.

However excommunication is not an administrative issue, it is spiritual. Excommunicating a priest really changes nothing. They will still have the same urges. The difference now (setting aside prison terms) is the Church looses control of the person.

I see it as both, but I agree with the spiritual point you make. That depends upon the person. If the person wishes to be restored into full communion with the Church, there is a fairly simple method for doing so. If not, then yes, control is lost, but as you noted, there is his problem of being charged and jailed by civil authorities. That said, the excommunication theme in this thread is over fraudulent ordination. If a bishop remains defrocked, as it were, then is it your concern that he continues fraudulent ordination? I am now confused. Probably confused myself there.

As a priest, they rely on the Church for accomodation, food, the basics of life. Releasing them from the Church gives them a chance to disapear into society, possibly even re-invent themselves and continue their behaviour.

True for a variety of people. But Excommunication does not necessarily mean being released from the church.

Not all positions within the Catholic Church require a priest to have contact with lay population or children. If once a prision term is completed it is not that hard to find a role for the priest that removes them from the ablity to re-offend, while being able to keep a very tight reign on their life. And maybe (though doubtful) able to rehabilitate them

True enough.

DR

 

[MG1962]

That said, the excommunication theme in this thread is over fraudulent ordination. If a bishop remains defrocked, as it were, then is it your concern that he continues fraudulent ordination? I am now confused. Probably confused myself there.

Sorry, let me first apologise for taking the bait on the derail.

Now back to the original point. I have no issue with the Bishop involved being excommunicated. All organisations have rules. With RCC you are told the rules up front, and what happens if you choose not to follow them.

There are many rewarding roles women can plan in the church if they have the calling. If they dont feel those satisfy them, there are other Christian faiths that allow them greater scopes in their spiritual roles

Personally I have never met a woman who professed frustration at being unable to become a priest in the Church so I cant really say how I feel on the subject

 

[RockNroll]

Like some others in this thread, I fully support (and even encourage) the catholic authorities’ decision to continue acting like moronic cavemen. You keep right on digging that hole, gentlemen!

On a somewhat related note, one of the most prominent catholic figures in Québec, cardinal Ouellet, recently came out very rabidly against abortion, even in cases of rape or to save the mother’s life, as well as various other aspects of free, modern society, such as the right to die for terminal patients (currently being considered in the province). To my great (and very pleasant) surprise, the overwhelming majority of Québécois (over 90% according to some polls) expressed their total disagreement with that loathsome little man’s positions. This almost gives me some hope for the province’s future

 

[pgwenthold]

I think this thread misses a very, very important point: Were you aware there were actually bishops in the RCC that have been ordaining women?

Bishops are a pretty select group. They are the highest level of priesthood (Cardinals and the Pope are administrative titles - the Pope is still just "The Bishop of Rome"). There are only a couple thousand bishops worldwide. That any of them is actually trying to ordain women in the RCC is a pretty good sign that there is some serious issues among the ranks.

There are still those like the moron in Arizona who excommunicated the nun for approving an abortion, but there are more progressive bishops who recognize the problems facing the priesthood and the irrationality of the church in addressing them.

The RCC needs more bishops like that.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I think this thread misses a very, very important point: Were you aware there were actually bishops in the RCC that have been ordaining women? Bishops are a pretty select group. They are the highest level of priesthood (Cardinals and the Pope are administrative titles - the Pope is still just "The Bishop of Rome"). There are only a couple thousand bishops worldwide. That any of them is actually trying to ordain women in the RCC is a pretty good sign that there is some serious issues among the ranks.

There are still those like the moron in Arizona who excommunicated the nun for approving an abortion, but there are more progressive bishops who recognize the problems facing the priesthood and the irrationality of the church in addressing them.

The RCC needs more bishops like that.

Did you miss this bit from post #32? IN any case, I like the way you said that.

There are a couple of ways to see this, rather than with outrage that leads nowhere.

Try this on for size. Take solace in the fact that there were bishops who risked sanction, and broke the rules anyway, knowing they'd catch crap for it sooner or later. That is evidence of dissent in the RCC, dissent that may in time lead to reform.

Or not.

Another is to admire these women who felt the call to be priests, and who risked sanction, knowing what the rules were and did it anyway to serve their parish. They took their risks willingly. They will take their lumps with good grace, if my guess is worth anything. Pretty impressive people, risking their own like that.

 

[Darth Rotor]

On a somewhat related note, one of the most prominent catholic figures in Québec, cardinal Ouellet, recently came out very rabidly against abortion, even in cases of rape or to save the mother’s life, as well as various other aspects of free, modern society, such as the right to die for terminal patients (currently being considered in the province).

To my great (and very pleasant) surprise, the overwhelming majority of Québécois (over 90% according to some polls) expressed their total disagreement with that loathsome little man’s positions. This almost gives me some hope for the province’s future

Curious: are most Québécois Catholic?

 

[Toke]

I am not sure if I said this, but of course the RCC can decide what members can and cannot do. Members (ordained or lay) who do not follow the church's rules will be hit with the full sanctions power of the church.

Like they could be forbidden access to the tree-house.