Vatican Raps ID

[jmercer]

A desire for survival created cooperation and therefore crowd control.

Agriculture caused civilization.

Edit: I admit though, religion may be better at the crowd control part.

Edit #2: When did religion ever NOT use fists, clubs, or guns?

Good points, KM. Religion has always been either the victim or perpetrator of violence, Hammegk. And it's always been superb at manipulating the masses - hence "crowd control".

And yeah, agriculture caused civilization, I agree.

 

[Melendwyr]

Having said that, dismissing the value of a scientist's comments simply because he has religious beliefs is hardly a credit to the scientific method.

What if he believes the Atlanteans are coming back from the sky-cities in flying saucers to conduct experiments on cattle?

And if the Pope's theory proved accurate, I would expect that to be acknowledged just like any other scientist.

You added a word inappropriately.

 

[hammegk]

Agriculture caused civilization.

The evidence as I understand it suggests hunter-gathers were religious.

Edit: I admit though, religion may be better at the crowd control part.

Indeed, and with less fuss & bother to those in charge.

Edit #2: When did religion ever NOT use fists, clubs, or guns?

When the anarchists get too nutty, they did, and some religions still do. Force as always is the final answer.

 

[KingMerv00]

The evidence as I understand it suggests hunter-gathers were religious.

I'm sure they were, but I was referring to large-scale civilization not itty-bitty hunter-gatherer tribes. Either way they were probably held together by a sense of cooperation, not their religion. Working together to hunt is far more effective than working alone.

When the anarchists get too nutty, they did, and some religions still do. Force as always is the final answer.

You seem to think a religion is always a benevolent force that never attacks first. Did Christianity try to convert the New World because they were being invaded by the Native Americans? What about the collision of two different religions? Surely you don't suggest one of them must be full of anarchists.

 

[jmercer]

What if he believes the Atlanteans are coming back from the sky-cities in flying saucers to conduct experiments on cattle?

You added a word inappropriately.

Regarding the first comment: So what? If he publishes a theory with apparently valid proofs (or documented and valid experiments supporting his theory), then I could care less if he worshiped Ogg Magog or Mickey Mouse.

Regarding the second comment: Given the context of the discussion, I disagree.

 

[hammegk]

I'm sure they were, but I was referring to large-scale civilization not itty-bitty hunter-gatherer tribes. Either way they were probably held together by a sense of cooperation, not their religion.

Human nature has changed for the worse, apparently. I'll still go with the civilizing influence of reverence for a higher power rather than cooperating to share your hunger.

You seem to think a religion is always a benevolent force that never attacks first. Did Christianity try to convert the New World because they were being invaded by the Native Americans? What about the collision of two different religions? Surely you don't suggest one of them must be full of anarchists.

Just the same old same old -- us vs them. Strife for Economics and Power characterizes disputes between groups of men, religion perhaps offering a rallying cry for the foot-soldiers.

 

[KingMerv00]

Just the same old same old -- us vs them. Strife for Economics and Power characterizes disputes between groups of men, religion perhaps offering a rallying cry for the foot-soldiers.

So you are agree that religion is an effective means of armed crowd control.

 

[EvilSmurf]

The Vatican (through the previous Pope) was condemning creationism and accepting evolution (explicitly saying Christianity and Evolution are not mutually exclusive) as early as the 80's. At least according to Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things", can't find the book at the moment to dig up the reference.

 

[KingMerv00]

"Vatican Raps ID"

Does it bother anyone else that the Pope's opinion on ID even matters?

Here we have a grown man who speaks a language no one can understand, wears a million dollar hat, and believes in magic yet somehow he is looked up to as some kind of scientific authority? Shouldn't his position on evolution be, "Here is my opinion, now go read text book."? No one is asking the Pope's opinion of particle physics.

Hmmm...old man...speaks many languages...magic...wears white on occasion...holy staff...cool hat...who does that remind me of?

Oh wait, Gandalf's magic actually works. My bad.

 

[Jorghnassen]

Well (though this is the nth thread on the subject), I think it's good to see some religious people recognizing you shouldn't try to force some religion into science (unless one wanders into debates of ethics and science, but at that point it's an entirely philoshophical problem).

 

[KingMerv00]

Well (though this is the nth thread on the subject), I think it's good to see some religious people recognizing you shouldn't try to force some religion into science (unless one wanders into debates of ethics and science, but at that point it's an entirely philoshophical problem).

But this IS forcing religion into science. Millions of people all over the world are waiting for his holiness to declare evolution science rather than blasphemy. Religious people need permission to believe in facts.

Is the Pope well educated on the subject? Why are do we care what he thinks in the first place?

 

[jmercer]

"Vatican Raps ID"

Does it bother anyone else that the Pope's opinion on ID even matters?

Here we have a grown man who speaks a language no one can understand, wears a million dollar hat, and believes in magic yet somehow he is looked up to as some kind of scientific authority? Shouldn't his position on evolution be, "Here is my opinion, now go read text book."? No one is asking the Pope's opinion of particle physics.

It's not the Pope that's saying it; it's the Vatican astronomer, Rev. George V. Coyne. And - given his unique background and education - I believe his opinion should be taken seriously.

http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/GCoyne2.html

Coyne, born January 19, 1933, in Baltimore, Maryland, completed his bachelor's degree in mathematics and his licentiate in philosophy at Fordham University, New York City, in 1958. He carried out a spectrophotometric study of the lunar surface for the completion of his doctorate in astronomy at Georgetown University in 1962. He spent the summer of 1963 doing research at Harvard University, the summer of 1964 as a National Science Foundation lecturer at the University of Scranton, and the summer of 1965 as visiting research professor at the University of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Laboratory.

A member of the Society of Jesus since the age of 18, he completed the licentiate in sacred theology at Woodstock College, Woodstock, Maryland, and was ordained a Roman Catholic priest in 1965. Coyne was visiting assistant professor at the UA Lunar and Planetary Laboratory (LPL) in 1966-67 and 1968-69, and visiting astronomer at the Vatican Observatory in 1967-68. He joined the Vatican Observatory as an astronomer in 1969 and became an assistant professor at the LPL in 1970. In 1976 he became a senior research fellow at the LPL and a lecturer in the UA Department of Astronomy. The following year he served as Director of the UA's Catalina Observatory and as Associate Director of the LPL.

Coyne became Director of the Vatican Observatory in 1978, and also Associate Director of the UA Steward Observatory. During 1979-80 he served as Acting Director and Head of the UA Steward Observatory and the Astronomy Department. As Director of the Vatican Observatory he has been a driving force in several new educational and research initiatives. He spends five months of the year in Tucson as adjunct professor in the University of Arizona Astronomy Department. Among his honors has been the naming of a comet after him.

 

[jmercer]

Is the Pope well educated on the subject? Why are do we care what he thinks in the first place?

Why do we care what an influential head of state thinks about science????

 

[Jorghnassen]

But this IS forcing religion into science. Millions of people all over the world are waiting for his holiness to declare evolution science rather than blasphemy. Religious people need permission to believe in facts.

Is the Pope well educated on the subject? Why are do we care what he thinks in the first place?

I don't think so. I think this is recognizing one's area of expertise (say). If a layman asks a scientist (who happens to be a physicist, but the layman can't tell the difference), about a biology problem and the answer he gets is "you should trust the biologists", is that a physicist forcing his views on biology?

To the layman, ID is in a gray area between science and religion, and since it appears that there is a debate between scientific authorities (as the defenders of ID appear to be scientific in the not-so-well-educated layman's eye), it is therefore not a bad idea to ask the opinion of a religious authority (who, incidentally, might have a better philosophical and scientific education than said layman). In this case, the religious authority recognizes that religion has no place in science, and so ID should not be considered part of science.

 

[bruto]

I'm certainly no fan of Catholicism and its wacky mysteries, its virtually genocidal resistance to birth control in AIDS-ravaged Africa, etc. etc. But I still think the pronouncement from Coyne is a good thing and well spoken. It is not so much a statement legitimizing evolution as a declaration that religion simply doesn't belong in the issue, and whatever I might think of the whole RC Church, let's give credit where due.

 

[hammegk]

So you are agree that religion is an effective means of armed crowd control.

Yes indeed, in times of need ...that being when the existing power structure decides such measures are required to ensure they remain in power.

 

[BillHoyt]

II will not take science advice from someone who believes crackers and flesh are interchangeable.

Would you care to write something more transubstantial?

 

[BillHoyt]

Why do we care what an influential head of state thinks about science????

Dubya. Quod erat demonstrandum

 

[burrahobbit]

Waaaaait a minute. Dubya can THINK about science?

 

[geni]

The Vatican has suppressed real science while dabbling in woo. (It is only recently that the Pope has graciously acknowleged that evolution is real science.)

They probably didn't see any reason to make a specific statement since they never really dissagred with in the first place. As far as catholic theology is concerned evolution has no significance one way or the other.