Vaclav Havel's take on "atheism"

[llwyd]

I would think that this speech won't go down very well on this forum:

http://www.forum2000.cz/en/projects...arks-by-vaclav-havel-at-the-opening-ceremony/

Below The Guardian's take on it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/oct/13/religion-atheism

I think Havel would have been better off talking just about consumerist materialism and not use the term "atheism" at all. I believe he's no friend of organized religion, but is giving it quite a bit of comfort by this speech. Strange.

 

[westprog]

I would think that this speech won't go down very well on this forum:

http://www.forum2000.cz/en/projects...arks-by-vaclav-havel-at-the-opening-ceremony/

Below The Guardian's take on it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/oct/13/religion-atheism

I think Havel would have been better off talking just about consumerist materialism and not use the term "atheism" at all. I believe he's no friend of organized religion, but is giving it quite a bit of comfort by this speech. Strange.

If there's one thing that Havel won't do, it is to tailor his opinions in order to further some abstract "cause". He spent time in jail for his beliefs and writings and had his imprisonment justified by people who knew that it was wrong, but who were prepared to go along with it in the cause of solidarity.

 

[Sledge]

That speech reads like the speaker had to be hustled offstage before they started shouting at kids to get off his lawn. Good grief, it actually opened with "When I were a lad, all this were trees."

 

[suds101]

I attended 3 forum 2000 panel discussions earlier this week. While I was not able to attend the opening remarks by President Haclav, the ones I did attend had a great diversity of opinion as well as expertise. I am a U.S economics student studying in Czech Republic this semester so I am not too familiar with Czech politics but it was interesting to see how much more conservative the Czech panelists were compared to the others.

During the "Economy As A Tool, Not An Objective" panel, its got fairly heated between Mirek Topolanek, Former Prime Minister of the Czech Republic and Peter Eigen, founder of Transparency International in Germany as well as with audience members. Vaclav Havel started Forum 2000 and the intelligent, public dialogue is something I wish there was more of in the states.

Also, I would be interested in finding out if that speech was translated or he spoke in English because it looks like the context he was using regarding atheism was more directed towards atheism the social movement (or some call it religion) then atheism the spiritual belief.

 

[Ladewig]

As an American, I find it mind-boggling that someone would refer to an investment that produces profits in ten or fifteen years as short-term. BUt from his perspective, my surprise only strengthens his point.

Also, I would be interested in finding out if that speech was translated or he spoke in English because it looks like the context he was using regarding atheism was more directed towards atheism the social movement (or some call it religion) then atheism the spiritual belief.

Can you describe "atheism the social movement"?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

This is the second time I've read of a prominent European equating "atheism" with "wasteful, polluting, consumerist." The first, of course, being Pope Hitlerjugend I. Now, with the exception of Ayn Rand's followers, I've found that the contrary to be the case.

Here in the states, atheists, who tend toward the Left politically, realize that this is the ONE planet that they're going to get and we'd better take care of it, or else. Of course, this is from my narrow American perspective and perhaps European non-believers have a different outlook on ecology than we do.

So which is it? Are Old World atheists despoilers of the environment or, given Europa's general support for "green" politics, is this just a cheap smear akin to American conservatives equating atheism with "Communism?"

 

[llwyd]

So which is it? Are Old World atheists despoilers of the environment or, given Europa's general support for "green" politics, is this just a cheap smear akin to American conservatives equating atheism with "Communism?"

Well, isn't this confusing crass capitalist materialism with atheism? Atheism does, I suppose, require a strong materialist position, but consumerism doesn't necessarily follow. Why should it? I don't see the connection here. I sympathize (partially) with Havel's actual message (that has nothing do with faith in supernatural all-powerful beings), but I find his terminology really weird.

 

[Kiosk]

Atheism does, I suppose, require a strong materialist position, but consumerism doesn't necessarily follow.

There are two definitions of "materialist", aren't there?

atheists, who tend toward the Left politically

See, that's one hell of a generalisation but it touches on something very interesting here. Seems increasingly popular to cast atheists as consumerist, obsessed with material goods and personal gain, unconcerned with the future of the planet, etc. The implication being that, thanks to their faith in something "bigger", religious believers are above all this; that they stand in the vanguard of environmental activism and have a more considered take on the world, with higher priorities than profit and greater concern for, y'know, people.

I've found the opposite to be true, more often than not. Over and over and over again. But I wouldn't stand at a lectern and inform my listeners that this was clearly How Things Are, that a "religious" society is by its very nature spiteful and avaricious, based on arrogant and hypocritical piety, all about "drill, baby, drill". What kind of fool would that make me?

Either something's been lost in translation, or Havel's a loon.

 

[llwyd]

There are two definitions of "materialist", aren't there?

I'm no expert really. Materialism has always felt like quite an unexiting world view, and I have no strong opinions on it (though I guess in some way quite everything an be reduced to matter - why this should be particularly important I don't really know though I think it must involve the 17th century somehow). Havel surely connects a certain crude everyday positivist materialism with crass consumerism, but there is no logical relationship there. With that kind of rhetoric you can easily connect anything with anything. Hmm, only connect...

 

[PixyMisa]

During the "Economy As A Tool, Not An Objective" panel, its got fairly heated between Mirek Topolanek, Former Prime Minister of the Czech Republic and Peter Eigen, founder of Transparency International in Germany as well as with audience members.

I would certainly hope so. We tried that approach in the 20th century. The results were... Let's just say they left something to be desired.

 

[ddt]

I would certainly hope so. We tried that approach in the 20th century. The results were... Let's just say they left something to be desired.

Huh, Topolanek was Czech PM from 2006 to 2009, so post-Communism. The bit about him having been PM of the Czech Republic rather than Czechoslovakia gave that already away.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

There are two definitions of "materialist", aren't there?

According to Merriam-Webster:

1: a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter b : a doctrine that the only or the highest values or objectives lie in material well-being and in the furtherance of material progress c : a doctrine that economic or social change is materially caused — compare historical materialism

2: a preoccupation with or stress upon material rather than intellectual or spiritual things

See, that's one hell of a generalisation...

And it's a safe one to make...

Exit polls suggest that white Americans without religion vote Democratic at roughly the same rates that white Americans with religion vote Republican. According to exit polls in the 2008 presidential election, 71% of non-religious whites voted for Democratic candidate Barack Obama while 74% of white Evangelical Christians voted for Republican candidate John McCain. This can be compared with the 43%-55% share of white votes overall.[12]

I don't remember seeing the GOP, a wholly-owned subsidary of the Christian Right, opening its arms to atheists. (On the other hand, Barry and Democrats have been doing their damnest to throw us under the bus while pandering to the Bible-humpers.)

 

[PixyMisa]

Huh, Topolanek was Czech PM from 2006 to 2009, so post-Communism. The bit about him having been PM of the Czech Republic rather than Czechoslovakia gave that already away.

I rather assumed that he was on the conservative side of the argument.

 

[Robin]

More "let's blame the atheists" nonsense.