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Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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dafydd said:
Quoted, just in case he has you on ignore. Answer him Clayton, you can't catch autism via the internet.
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Exactly. Thanks for mentioning that.

Clayton, I think it reasonable to assume that you won't deign me worthy of a response.

I also think it reasonable to assume that the reason is my autism.

If you don't respond to me now, I will regard your failure to respond as acknowledgement of this post.
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And quoted again.
CM, there's a splendid opportunity for learning here.
If you won't take advantage of it, I shall.
 
jdc324 said:
Thank you. It was a bit of an eye-opener, that conversation.

:cool:
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http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/sue-reid-on-mmr-in-the-daily-mail/

Actually, James, the Office of National Statistics and the Health Protection Agency says there have been four deaths from measles in the last twenty years, and two of these were children with serious underlying conditions, and one was misreported. Read up! We were all nursed through measles and I do not know anyone of my generation who died. I must inquire, are you part of the Big Pharma industry, do work for the Priory (which charges £300.000 a year to look after an autistic child) or what is your particular interest in this Italian case? The Italians (and again this is on line) say one child should not suffer for the herd. I think you ought to visit families (one in 64 in England and Wales) who have a child with an autistic condition. Spend a weekend with them, change the nappies at 21, that kind of thing and then you wouldn’t take such a partisan view. If there is any risk it needs debate and investigation. Sue
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CM, are you quoting the Daily Fail* for comic relief, or just to avoid entering in a discussion with a person diagnosed as autistic?

ETA
*the Daily Fail's Sue Reid
 
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I wonder if this post could explain CM's reluctance to respond to Bram Kaandorp
Bram Kaandorp said:
A possible problem I have seen with the whole mercury/thiomersal controversy is that when it turned out that mercury didn't cause autism, the goalpost moved to thiomersal.

Also, thiomersal is not in child vaccines in the Netherlands, but the autism rates are roughly the same.

Dutch site with graph of autism rates
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Clayton Moore said:
http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/sue-reid-on-mmr-in-the-daily-mail/
Actually, James, the Office of National Statistics and the Health Protection Agency says there have been four deaths from measles in the last twenty years, and two of these were children with serious underlying conditions, and one was misreported. Read up! We were all nursed through measles and I do not know anyone of my generation who died. I must inquire, are you part of the Big Pharma industry, do work for the Priory (which charges £300.000 a year to look after an autistic child) or what is your particular interest in this Italian case? The Italians (and again this is on line) say one child should not suffer for the herd. I think you ought to visit families (one in 64 in England and Wales) who have a child with an autistic condition. Spend a weekend with them, change the nappies at 21, that kind of thing and then you wouldn’t take such a partisan view. If there is any risk it needs debate and investigation. Sue
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Congratulations on successfully copying and pasting a quote from a Daily Mail journalist into a forum post.

To demonstrate that I am your equal, I will now do likewise. As you may have noticed, the blog post that you are selectively quoting from has a response to that quote. I will also show off my skills by highlighting particularly relevant parts of the response.

Dear Sue,
I have read the statistics on deaths from acute measles infection over the decades. The fact there have been so few in recent years is testimony to the vaccination program that you are undermining. That you do not know anyone of your generation who died tells us nothing about the seriousness of measles then or today. Look at the statistics I provided in my previous email – you may not recall any victims of measles but it is clear that others will. Those are not just abstract numbers – they represent actual people who sadly died and whose friends and families mourn them now. In Duisburg in 2006 measles had a mortality rate of 1 in 307 as two of the three young people with encephalitis died. The two children who developed encephalitis and died were aged 2 months, and 2 years. The infant was too young for vaccination and would have relied upon herd immunity for protection. So if we’re thinking about the children, perhaps we should start with preventable deaths?
As for the difficulties faced by families who have children with autism, I do not deny them. But I do deny that there is a link between MMR vaccination and autism.You say that “if there is any risk it needs debate and investigation” – the potential risk has been debated and investigated already and the investigations showed there was no association between MMR and autism. You seem to be ignoring the investigations that have already taken place.
As for your query about my motivations – I made them clear in my previous email. You seem to think I was being dishonest and that I am in fact paid by Big Pharma. You are wrong about this – I have never received a penny in payment from Big Pharma and have absolutely no link to them. I have zero financial interest in either vaccination or autism. I am happy to have clarified this point and I do hope that you will accept my clarification as being honest.
Kind regards,
James
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Bram Kaandorp said:
I've just read that part, and I have to say that it doesn't surprise me in the least.

I am a zombie...

Brilliant!
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Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.
 
jdc324 said:
Congratulations on successfully copying and pasting a quote from a Daily Mail journalist into a forum post.

To demonstrate that I am your equal, I will now do likewise. As you may have noticed, the blog post that you are selectively quoting from has a response to that quote. I will also show off my skills by highlighting particularly relevant parts of the response.
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Dear Sue,

I have read the statistics on deaths from acute measles infection over the decades. The fact there have been so few in recent years is testimony to the vaccination program that you are undermining.
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The reason there are so few deaths after an acute measles infection is the ability of modern medicine's to cure disease in comparison to that of the 1950s.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.
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Ah, so if you simply redefine what an ASD person experiences, you can always win.

You know what, could you please, just this once, debate honestly? I know it might be hard, but try it, this topic deserves it.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.
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You really are disgustingly ignorant of what autism is and you should be ashamed of yourself for characterising them as victims let alone pigeon-holing autists like that.

Clayton Moore said:
The reason there are so few deaths after an acute measles infection is the ability of modern medicine's to cure disease in comparison to that of the 1950s.
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No Clay, the reason there are so few deaths is because the majority of the population is vaccinated. The case fatality rate for measles has been unchanged in developed countries since the 1950's.

Este
 
Clayton Moore said:
Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.
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So when reffering to those with autism, or the autistic, you were not actually talking about people with disorders in the autistic spectrum?

Whom exactly were you describing?

Does your understanding of autism extend beyond a single scene in Rainman?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.
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I believe that you fail to understand that autism is a SPECTRUM of developmental disorders - ranging from mild to severe. You seem to be emphasizing the more severe side of the spectrum there and ignoring the rest of it.

Would that be because that is your pre-judged idea of what it should be and you cannot conceive that you may be wrong? Thereby forcing you to ignore contrary opinions or facts? This seems to be a pattern that is really hard for you to break, not just in this thread, but in others as well. It's like you've grabbed hold of this idea and are so focused on it that you can't let it go, somewhat like certain autistic types might do when perseverating on a sound or activity.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Do you scream for 24/7? Do you remain silent for 24/7? Do you have to be attended to all your waking hours? No? Then stop pretending you are one the autism victims I am talking about.
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Actually, I'm one of the people who say that none of those supposed victims exist.

Yes, autism in its classical form is a very difficult thing to deal with. However, to think that autism and vaccinations are causally linked, you have to reject the relationship of cause and effect, and posit one of your own, which violates all known laws of reality.

So I am not pretending to be one of those victims, primarily because I contest your assertions, nay, reject them out of hand (after having checked your sources, of course).

Are YOU one of those victims you speak of? No? Well, then why are you complaining about it?

See how your "logic" can be turned on you?
 
Border Reiver said:
Not that I think you actually care about the distinction, but autism is NOT a disease, it is a developmental disorder.
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Like the parents who notice that their children become autistic shortly after getting the MMR vaccine?

How does that imply disease?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Like the parents who notice that their children become autistic shortly after getting the MMR vaccine?

How does that imply disease?
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So, you're not going to be debating honestly, then? Not to say I'm surprised. But I will counter with the posters upthread that showed that doctors can (through video) see signs of autism in children younger than vaccination age. And, even if the two were related, aren't the diseases worse than the slight chance of 'catching' autism? I don't think you ever even acknowledged that I asked the question.
 
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