Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Tomblvd]

I don't think the anti-vaxers ever claimed that vaccinations don't work, or that they don't lead to lower rates of disease.

Not only do individual anti-vaxxers deny vaccines work and lead to lower rates of disease, anti-vax groups, probably a majority of them, state the same thing.

 

[Puppycow]

I don't think the anti-vaxers ever claimed that vaccinations don't work, or that they don't lead to lower rates of disease.

Oh they absolutely do! One of their battle cries is that vaccines don't work and the diseases were in decline prior to their introduction anyhow. Improved sanitation and better medical care was responsible. The twits don't even know the difference between morbidity and mortality.

Este

Not only do individual anti-vaxxers deny vaccines work and lead to lower rates of disease, anti-vax groups, probably a majority of them, state the same thing.

Concrete example of anti-vaxxers making exactly that claim:
Outbreaks Proof That Whooping Cough Vaccines Don’t Work

The last paragraph:

Pertussis-containing vaccines seem to have little effect on the overall incidence of the infection. Instead of focusing on the fear of whooping cough, it is obvious we need to focus on strengthening the immune system naturally and simple public health measure that work. Health aids such as hand washing, getting eight hours of sleep per night, taking vitamin C and maintaining a high blood level of Vitamin D are foundational in the prevention of all infectious diseases, including pertussis. Clearly, public health officials need to embrace these non-toxic, non-invasive methods over injections that don’t work and can cause serious harm.

Rates of vaccination go down, whooping cough makes a comeback, and anti-vaxxers cite the comeback as evidence that vaccines don't work.

 

[phildonnia]

Concrete example of anti-vaxxers making exactly that claim:
Outbreaks Proof That Whooping Cough Vaccines Don’t Work

The last paragraph:


Rates of vaccination go down, whooping cough makes a comeback, and anti-vaxxers cite the comeback as evidence that vaccines don't work.

Wow, I stand corrected then.

 

[Trish Randall]

I also live in Washington state - & on the advice of my doctor I just got a pertussis vaccination. (I'd been vaccinated before, but my doctor strongly recommended I get vaccinated again). Not only have I heard about vaccines conferring less than life-long immunity, but I experienced this myself. Living in a community of people who don't believe in vaccinations, I ended up catching rubella (even though I'd had MMR vaccine back in the day).

 

[pakeha]

Concrete example of anti-vaxxers making exactly that claim:
Outbreaks Proof That Whooping Cough Vaccines Don’t Work

...

Rates of vaccination go down, whooping cough makes a comeback, and anti-vaxxers cite the comeback as evidence that vaccines don't work.

Very neat, indeed.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Wow, I stand corrected then.

Mumps Outbreak Involved 97% Vaccinated Children

http://experimentalvaccines.blogspot.com/2012/11/mumps-outbreak-involved-89-fully.html

I'm sure the CDC's eventual whooping cough explanation will be similar.

Anti-vaxers realize that the vaccine regimen in the USA is out of control.

Anti-vaxers are sensible people who haven't been brainwashed into thinking their doctors and anyone or anyone product they are involved with are always the correct way to go.

The medical failures of FDA approved drugs, soliciting lawyers bombarding us on TV, should be a huge connecting dot but our media looks the other way. Not only looks the other way but insists all is O.K. not to worry.

It's common sense that vaccines, live-weakened-dead with various accompanying substances, which are injected would be more difficult to OVER SEE than measured amounts of drugs which are INGESTED.

Think about it. A vaccine is intended to provoke the immune system into thinking it is being attacked.

It's written on the label to not give even one aspirin children under 12 without consulting a doctor. The label also says women shouldn't take aspirin in the last three months of pregnancy for fear of harming the unborn. Yet we inject 8 of these viruses plus accompanying substances into newborn infants? What the hell?

Establishing a vaccine court is like having a court for child molesters that makes the parents go through a myriad of hoops for monetary damages without punishing the child molesters who are free to molest again and again.

Pathetically humorous is the solution of giving a second and third vaccine dose when it is determined that ONE didn't do the trick.

 

[gnome]

It's common sense that vaccines, live-weakened-dead with various accompanying substances, which are injected would be more difficult to OVER SEE than measured amounts of drugs which are INGESTED.

Why is that more difficult to oversee?

It's written on the label to not give even one aspirin children under 12 without consulting a doctor. The label also says women shouldn't take aspirin in the last three months of pregnancy for fear of harming the unborn. Yet we inject 8 of these viruses plus accompanying substances into newborn infants? What the hell?

You realize that different substances have different effects, correct? Because one substance is unsafe for infants means nothing for something else. It's not like there's a generic supply of medical "stuff" and they put some of the "stuff" in aspirin, which is unsafe for babies, and some more of the "stuff" in vaccines and pretend it's safe when it's not.

They're two different things, one is safe, one isn't.

 

[Mister Earl]

Mumps Outbreak Involved 97% Vaccinated Children

http://experimentalvaccines.blogspot.com/2012/11/mumps-outbreak-involved-89-fully.html

I'm sure the CDC's eventual whooping cough explanation will be similar.

I'm sure you think so.

Anti-vaxers realize that the vaccine regimen in the USA is out of control.

No, anti-vaxxers have a belief that is not supported by evidence or reason.

Anti-vaxers are sensible people who haven't been brainwashed into thinking their doctors and anyone or anyone product they are involved with are always the correct way to go.

Yet they are willing and eager to be brainwashed by a disgraced "doctor" who put money ahead of the welfare, and even lives, of children too young to be immunized who rely on herd immunity for protection.

The medical failures of FDA approved drugs, soliciting lawyers bombarding us on TV, should be a huge connecting dot but our media looks the other way. Not only looks the other way but insists all is O.K. not to worry.

We get to live twice as long as our forefathers. Twice as long! There was a time when thirty was considered old. Think about that. Vaccines can't take all the credit for that, of course, but they can take much of it. I don't have to worry about polio for one.

It's common sense that vaccines, live-weakened-dead with various accompanying substances, which are injected would be more difficult to OVER SEE than measured amounts of drugs which are INGESTED.

Clinical testing, how does it work?

Think about it. A vaccine is intended to provoke the immune system into thinking it is being attacked.

And said immune system then cranks out antibodies to destroy the weakened or dead virus, and said antibodies then stick around and man the foxholes in case the real thing shows up.

It's written on the label to not give even one aspirin children under 12 without consulting a doctor. The label also says women shouldn't take aspirin in the last three months of pregnancy for fear of harming the unborn. Yet we inject 8 of these viruses plus accompanying substances into newborn infants? What the hell?

Yes. Do you think incredulity alone is enough reason to risk the lives of infants? Feel free to conduct your own clinical testing to confirm or refute scientific claims. I won't stop you. But incredulity against rigorous science is like putting a bacterium against silverback gorilla. They're not even in the same weight class.

Establishing a vaccine court is like having a court for child molesters that makes the parents go through a myriad of hoops for monetary damages without punishing the child molesters who are free to molest again and again.

Send me a PM when child molesters completely eradicate a disease.

Pathetically humorous is the solution of giving a second and third vaccine dose when it is determined that ONE didn't do the trick.

Sure. Immunized populations are a significant environmental factor for diseases. They either evolve to cope and get around it, or they die out, like polio. Evolution, how does it work?

In closing, I kindly suggest you read up on introductory biology. Even if you don't "want" to be swayed by things like reason, rigorous science, facts, et cetera, it never hurts to be more knowledgeable about the things you want to argue against. Incredulity is not an argument. It's a proclamation of ignorance.

#EDIT: Oh, did you know Andrew Wakefield was trying to market his own vaccination? Yeah, when he was trying to put the ol' cement shoes on the MMR vaccine, it wasn't because "teh vaccines are evil", it was because he was trying to deep-six a competitor.

 

[Capsid]

Pathetically humorous is the solution of giving a second and third vaccine dose when it is determined that ONE didn't do the trick.

It has been well established in animal models that subsequent immunisations boost the response, leading to antibody class switching, affinity maturation, increased specificity and inducing memory B cells.

 

[Tomblvd]

Mumps Outbreak Involved 97% Vaccinated Children]

(snip the rest because I care about humanity)

Clayton the inventor of argument from incredulity called, and he said you owe him a bajillion dollars in royalties.

 

[Andy_Ross]

UK, Three more babies die in Whooping COugh outbreak, that's 13 this year http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20539837

There were 1,614 infections last month, bringing the total to 7,728 this year.
Routine vaccination was introduced in 1957. Before then cases could affect more than 100,000 people and kill 300 in a single year.

 

[dafydd]

UK, Three more babies die in Whooping COugh outbreak, that's 13 this year http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20539837

There were 1,614 infections last month, bringing the total to 7,728 this year.
Routine vaccination was introduced in 1957. Before then cases could affect more than 100,000 people and kill 300 in a single year.

Introducing facts into the anti-vaxxers world is a waste of time.

 

[ehcks]

Mumps Outbreak Involved 97% Vaccinated Children

Just like how a majority of people who die in car accidents were wearing their seatbelts, or how a majority of people who get their feet smashed by falling objects on a job site were wearing steel-toed boots, or how most people who get an infected computer had an anti-virus. The reason these things happen is because an enormous majority of people are protecting themselves, while no form of protection is absolute.

You're looking at the wrong statistic. You need to find one that compares the ratios of infected people between the two groups. What percent of people with the vaccine get sick, compared to the percent of people without it who get sick.

We could also get into the more complicated subject of viral and bacterial evolution. Some unvaccinated people get sick, the infection mutates enough to evade the vaccine, then gets into vaccinated people.

 

[Giordano]

Pathetically humorous is the solution of giving a second and third vaccine dose when it is determined that ONE didn't do the trick.

If you read up on how the immune system works you would not make embarrassingly wrong statements like this one. Look up primary versus secondary immune response. Or just think about what the term " booster vaccination" might mean.

 

[Clayton Moore]

If you read up on how the immune system works you would not make embarrassingly wrong statements like this one. Look up primary versus secondary immune response. Or just think about what the term " booster vaccination" might mean.

A little sagacity is in order.

Meningitis is dangerous because it could result in fevers. Fevers can become high fevers. High fevers can cause seizures. Seizures can cause brain damage.

Autism is the result of brain damage.


Vaccines have been known to cause fevers and seizures.



_____ _____ _______........................exclamation point

 

[ehcks]

A little sagacity is in order.

Meningitis is dangerous because it could result in fevers. Fevers can become high fevers. High fevers can cause seizures. Seizures can cause brain damage.

Autism is the result of brain damage.

Epilepsy causes seizures. Does epilepsy cause autism?

 

[Giordano]

A little sagacity is in order.

Meningitis is dangerous because it could result in fevers. Fevers can become high fevers. High fevers can cause seizures. Seizures can cause brain damage.

Autism is the result of brain damage.


Vaccines have been known to cause fevers and seizures.



_____ _____ _______........................exclamation point

Sagacity? Your fever theory has been rebutted multiple times in this thread. It is a bizarre mechanism, made up in the absence of any evidence, to explain a link between vaccination and autism that has been proven to not exist!

 

[pakeha]

A little sagacity is in order.

Meningitis is dangerous because it could result in fevers. Fevers can become high fevers. High fevers can cause seizures. Seizures can cause brain damage.

Autism is the result of brain damage.


Vaccines have been known to cause fevers and seizures.



_____ _____ _______........................exclamation point

OK, who gave CM permission to change the meaning of sagacity?

In any case, CM, IS autism the effect of brain damage?

Epilepsy causes seizures. Does epilepsy cause autism?

I googled a bit about seizures and found on my first hit:
" A seizure can be a symptom of another health problem, such as:

A rapidly increasing fever (fever seizure).
An extremely low blood sugar level in a person who has diabetes.
Damage to the brain from a stroke, brain surgery, or a head injury.
Problems that have been present since birth (congenital problems).
Withdrawal from alcohol, prescription medicine, or illegal drugs.
An infection, such as meningitis or encephalitis.
A brain tumor or structural defect in the brain, such as an aneurysm.
Parasitic infections, such as tapeworm or toxoplasmosis.

Eclampsia is pregnancy-related seizure activity that is usually caused by high blood pressure. It is a life-threatening condition for both a mother and her baby (fetus) because during a seizure, the fetus's oxygen supply is drastically reduced. Eclampsia is more likely to occur after the 20th week of pregnancy. For more information, see the topic Preeclampsia and High Blood Pressure During Pregnancy.

Nonepileptic seizure (NES), also called pseudoseizure, is a condition that can cause seizure-like activity. NES is characterized by a loss of or change in physical function without a central nervous system problem. The loss or change causes periods of physical activity or inactivity that resemble epileptic seizures. NES is usually related to a mental health problem. The physical symptoms may be caused by emotional conflicts or stress. The symptoms usually appear suddenly and at times of extreme emotional stress."

http://www.webmd.com/epilepsy/tc/seizures-topic-overview

 

[Acleron]

A little sagacity is in order.

Meningitis is dangerous because it could result in fevers. Fevers can become high fevers. High fevers can cause seizures. Seizures can cause brain damage.

Autism is the result of brain damage.


Vaccines have been known to cause fevers and seizures.



_____ _____ _______........................exclamation point

Infections cause fevers, vaccines prevent infection. So by your logic, vaccines prevent autism.

 

[Estellea]

Infections cause fevers, vaccines prevent infection. So by your logic, vaccines prevent autism.

That's more true than you may think as the rubella vaccine definitely prevents autism and the influenza vaccine may also prevent autism as maternal influenza has been associated with an increased risk of autism.

And Clay, calling autism "brain damage" is disgusting and offensive to autists so just stop it.

Este