Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Cheezey D]

It is really amazing sometimes the mental contortions people will go to through in order to cling to their, usually sincerely held, beliefs.

The trouble is these people could seriously hold back the research into the real cause/s of ASD, if people listen to them, cos, you know, they already KNOW what causes it!

D

 

[BazBear]

For those who are questioning the need for polio vaccinations http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20493540

People from Nigeria, Pakistan and Afghanistan should not be allowed to leave their country unless they can show they have been vaccinated against polio, according to the body which monitors attempts to eradicate the disease.

A report from the Independent Monitoring Board (IMB) of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative says every time a child or adult from these three countries travels abroad, they risk carrying the polio virus with them.

 

[Kid Eager]

Anti-Vaccination belief bumps its head on reality

Found this article on the Sydney Daily Telegraph website which, amongst other things, highlights a strong correlation between outbreaks of preventable diseases in specific localities, and the lower rates of immunisation in those same localities.

It should come as no surprise that whooping cough outbreaks are highest on the home turf of the Australian Vaccination Network...

ETA - oops, there were two articles - here's the one that talks about the outbreaks:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/children-face-risks-in-pockets-of-resistance-to-vaccination/story-e6freuy9-1226524484777

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...n_injection_of_reason_against_anti_jab_dopes/

 

[Clayton Moore]

It is really amazing sometimes the mental contortions people will go to through in order to cling to their, usually sincerely held, beliefs.

The trouble is these people could seriously hold back the research into the real cause/s of ASD, if people listen to them, cos, you know, they already KNOW what causes it!

D

Have you figured out what causes toddlers all over the first world to become autistic? Many here suspect it is, ROTFLMAO, hereditary.

Have you seen the recent ?medical? revelation that mammogram rage is bad medicine?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162...overdiagnosis-in-1-million-women-study-finds/

Sooner or later, sooner I hope, the vaccine nonsense will also become reality.

 

[TSR]

Sooner or later, sooner I hope, the vaccine nonsense will also become reality.

Well, unless you find some actual science to back it up, I doubt your nonsense will ever be accepted as reality.

 

[TSR]

Have you seen the recent ?medical? revelation that mammogram rage is bad medicine?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162...overdiagnosis-in-1-million-women-study-finds/

Once again, you should read your sources:

Mammograms are still worthwhile, because they do catch some deadly cancers and save lives, doctors stress. Some experts also disagree with conclusions the new study reached.

and

Researchers analyzed federal surveys on mammography and cancer registry statistics from 1976 through 2008 to track how many cancers were found early, while still confined to the breast, versus later, when they had spread to lymph nodes or more widely.

The scientists assumed that the actual amount of disease - how many true cases exist - did not change or grew only a little during those three decades.

Why do you suppose they would make that assumption?

 

[pakeha]

Have you figured out what causes toddlers all over the first world to become autistic? Many here suspect it is, ROTFLMAO, hereditary. ...

Setting up a strawman fallacy yet again, CM?
Have you set up a poll to find out what 'many here' think causes autism?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Setting up a strawman fallacy yet again, CM?
Have you set up a poll to find out what 'many here' think causes autism?

He wouldn't have to. If he compiled a study of the posts made here he would see that the term used that he has mistaken for "hereditary" is actually "genetic". I wonder if his post was meant to convince others or himself?

I have known a few people born with cerebral palsey. It was caused by the information in their genes but was not "inherited" in the way Clayton suggests. I wonder if he can work out the distinction?


Mind you he seems to think that his discounting of known factors somehow makes his random suggestion, based on no verifiable evidence, more likely.

Yet, after all these posts all he has to supply to convince me remains unchanged. All he has to do is post a few well chosen studies to show that there is an increase in ASD, that. Theb rate of increase is uniform and global, and that the rate of increase is proportional to vaccination.

One wonders why he would have posted anything else at all.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Pssst! Have you noticed how many more autistic kids there have been since we started using the internet? Think about it. Too much internet cant be healthy, and we are using it more and more arond the world. And kids start being autistic about the age they go to school, and get exposed! What else can so many people have in common around the world? Nothing...

...Except the air they breathe! Have you noticed how more kids are autistic now we know about the damage to our ozone layer? Just imagine how much pollution we have pumped into the atmosphere to be dispersed around the world, into seas to pollute clouds... and the more cars we produce the more. Autism we seem to get! What else could possibly explain so many cases around the world except this? Nothing....

...Except the sun in the sky! I mean with the ozone gone we get more autism just like we get more cancer. With no evidence at all I am willing to declare that the sun, which all children are exposed to, must be to blame for the autism epidemic. Too much must be unhealthy. Obviously...

...Unless it is radio waves. Notice how autism only becomes a worldwide concern when we bombard the world with too many transmissions? You may scoff, but the doctors all know the truth. I wonder if doctors give their kids cell phones? Hmmm... i dont think so and will make no effort to find out.

E Numbers, Cola, Talcum powder, flouridation, organic food, literacy, contact lenses, healthcare, fridges, cars, electric trains, formula milk, processed infant food, microwaves, plastics, imported grains, cod liver oil, and thousands of other factors have increased globally in the timescale that Clayton thinks the incidence rate of ASD has increased. Even if we were to assume the rate needed to be explained by anything other than improved diagnosis and wider spread recognition of ASD, why are any of these discounted in favour of the "cause" proven to be unrelated by numerous studies? Why should we waste any further effort discounting a false link when we could apply the research to studies that may actually help people?

 

[Cheezey D]

Have you figured out what causes toddlers all over the first world to become autistic? Many here suspect it is, ROTFLMAO, hereditary.

No, but as has been pointed out to you many times already, the studies show that it is not due to vaccines. I also suspect that it is genetic (hereditary is something different). The age of the father at conception seems to be a good lead to follow, sounds feasible to me (Disclaimer: I am not a scientist or health professional )

D

 

[Acleron]

Found this article on the Sydney Daily Telegraph website which, amongst other things, highlights a strong correlation between outbreaks of preventable diseases in specific localities, and the lower rates of immunisation in those same localities.

It should come as no surprise that whooping cough outbreaks are highest on the home turf of the Australian Vaccination Network...

ETA - oops, there were two articles - here's the one that talks about the outbreaks:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/children-face-risks-in-pockets-of-resistance-to-vaccination/story-e6freuy9-1226524484777

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...n_injection_of_reason_against_anti_jab_dopes/

The comments to the Telegraph article have answered the age old question. What happens when an immovable object, the facts, meet an irresistible force (woo)? Irrationality.

 

[The Don]

Love this comment from the Daily Telegraph article

Hutch of Sydney Posted at 8:20 AM November 27, 2012
****** hippies are gonna end up killing us all!

 

[catsmate]

Here is a good introduction to the immune system and how vaccines work.
Not really intended for the deluded anti-vax nuts but useful.

 

[dafydd]

Not really intended for the deluded anti-vax nuts but useful.

So the link contains facts.

 

[Estellea]

Have you figured out what causes toddlers all over the first world to become autistic? Many here suspect it is, ROTFLMAO, hereditary.

As has been pointed out to you Clay, genetics =/= heredity in every case. And it isn't just "first world", when investigators look, they are finding it everywhere. The difference is is that developed countries have more resources to look and provide assistance to autists. Autism aetiology is going to be as multi-faceted as its presentation and just because all causes haven't been elucidated, doesn't mean we can't rule factors out like vaccines and refrigerator mothers.

Sooner or later, sooner I hope, the vaccine nonsense will also become reality.

Well of course you hope that, I would imagine that every conspiracy you hold near and dear would come to fruition and when it doesn't, you can just wave it away with more conspiracy. You must look like you're swatting at flies all the time.

Este

 

[Clayton Moore]

No, but as has been pointed out to you many times already, the studies show that it is not due to vaccines. I also suspect that it is genetic (hereditary is something different). The age of the father at conception seems to be a good lead to follow, sounds feasible to me (Disclaimer: I am not a scientist or health professional )

D

Wake up.

There haven't been any valid studies. The idiocy is that cause can't be determined from who/what was available in the room so to speak.

The age of the father? If that were even close to reality it would have been common knowledge centuries long past.

Hinting to the public "the age of the father" as a possible cause of autism is THE MEDICAL/SCIENTIFIC community flexing its STOCKHOLM muscles.


The following doesn't bother you?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162...overdiagnosis-in-1-million-women-study-finds/

 

[Tomtomkent]

The following doesn't bother you?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162...overdiagnosis-in-1-million-women-study-finds/

No.

It also has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

Perhaps you should stop "hinting" at the connection between autism and vaccines and actually prove it. Or are you as bad as those you are trying to cast as the villains of this conversation?

 

[Miss_Kitt]

Sadly, I lived in Washington state, US, which is currently experiencing a whooping cough outbreak -- which was started on Whidbey Island, nearish Seattle, among a population that had a high number of anti-vaxxers. That, in and of itself, is no great surprise.

HOWEVER, the outbreak has spread into the general population, and the CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) sent a boatload of investigators out. Too many people that should have been protected, based upon their vaccination history, have contracted the disease. They are operationg now on the provisional hypothesis that the most recent version of the vaccine is not giving immunity for as long a period as previous versions did; they are now recommending re-vaccination for people while research continues.

Hopefully I will be able to supply a linky, this was really bad news. Pertussis is a narsty disease, and most often the victims are babies and young children who are exposed by adults caring for them.

--Miss_Kitt



ETA Here's one story: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_...e-found-to-wane-in-effectiveness-after-age-6/

 

[pakeha]

Wake up.

There haven't been any valid studies. The idiocy is that cause can't be determined from who/what was available in the room so to speak.

The age of the father? If that were even close to reality it would have been common knowledge centuries long past.

...

Could you explain why you think there have been no valid studies?

Common knowledge?
Dunno, CM.
After all, it wasn't so long ago the medical world learned to wash their hands before assisting a birth.

 

[Straw Man]

The age of the father? If that were even close to reality it would have been common knowledge centuries long past.

Really, Clayton? Would this be the highly enlightened centuries long past where the mentally ill were placed in asylums to keep them out of society, and where their problems weren't even treated?