Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Dcdrac]

It never ceases to amaze me how much the anti vaccine people are willing to belive charlatans and frauds like Andrew Wakefiled as opposed to real scientific fact.

 

[dafydd]

Facts! We doan need no stinkin' facts!

 

[TSR]

Mercury is in vaccinations!

You know what else is in vaccines?

The deadly poison hydrogen hydroxide!!!!!!!!

I pointed you to a buttload of real sources, and you come back with YouTube?

Let me know when you've decided to actually *learn* something, and not just try to reinforce what you've already decided.

Until then, you will be mocked and ridiculed. Because just like those doctors (how many, BTW? How many of them *didn't* cook the books, make up data or break the law?) Names and countries, please.

No, it's not "hard" for those doctors to have done the research. It *has* been done, time and again. This is why we know about the side effects vaccines actually have.

What is next to impossible (I do not discount the remote possibility that at some point such a link will be documented, bit then I also think it would be awesome if telepathy existed) is to produce untainted, reproducible research to support the OP's assertion that there is a link between ASD and vaccines, which is why neither of you can find a single credible study showing such a link exists.

Go ahead, prove me wrong -- one formal study, one formal reproduction of that study's results, and I will leave this forum forever.

Until then, expect derision of your inability to do so, and fundamental impotence to do more than stamp your feet about it.

 

[Estellea]

Okeyyyy!!! Didn't go to bed last night until 4.30 in the morning. Why? Well I couldn't leave this alone.

After sifting through allot of data, and lots of coffee(brain is going to explode) I Have made a few discoveries. There are allot of doctors and scientists that have took a stance against vaccinations. I have yet to find one (doctor or scientist) that has took this stance that has not been ridiculed attacked career destroyed the story seems to repeat this pattern.

I have looked in all major and allot of minor search engines and can not find one proponent of vaccine skepticism that has not come under scrutiny or attack.

I see what you are using for sources and I don't think you are here to "learn" at all. What doctors and scientists have taken a stance against vaccines and have had their career destroyed?

How is it that they were doing really well for themselves then they started sighting there may be dangers associated with vaccines then all their careers take a nose dive (public media medical scrutiny law suits being struck off over and over again)
So please if anyone has a link where some doctor or researcher hasn't been branded a heretic please provide it for me.

Funny how I can find numerous studies and reports in PubMed and by the Institute of Medicine and Cochrane Collaboration regarding vaccine adverse events/safety and none of those legitimate investigators have been branded a heretic. Please feel free to name names that you think this has happened to and I guarantee, there is much more to them than what you have led yourself to beleive.

Is mercury safe for human consumption?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0RLmb8EULc

25 Member Advisory Panel Rejects FDA Safety Report on Mercury Fillings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WujHCWE-hOc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh_yb80KH6Y&feature=watch_response

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element)

The dose makes the poison and humans have an innate ability to excrete mercury so the answer is yes and no.

Mercury is a chemical element with the symbol Hg and atomic number 80. It is also known as quicksilver or hydrargyrum ( < Greek "hydr-" water and "argyros" silver). A heavy, silvery d-block element, mercury is the only metal that is liquid at standard conditions for temperature and pressure; the only other element that is liquid under these conditions is bromine, though metals such as caesium, gallium, and rubidium melt just above room temperature. With a freezing point of −38.83 °C and boiling point of 356.73 °C, mercury has one of the narrowest ranges of its liquid state of any metal.[2][3][4]I

Mercury occurs in deposits throughout the world mostly as cinnabar (mercuric sulfide). The red pigment vermilion is mostly obtained by reduction from cinnabar. Cinnabar is highly toxic by ingestion or inhalation of the dust. Mercury poisoning can also result from exposure to water-soluble forms of mercury (such as mercuric chloride or methylmercury), inhalation of mercury vapor, or eating seafood contaminated with mercury.

Mercury is used in thermometers, barometers, manometers, sphygmomanometers, float valves, mercury switches, and other devices though concerns about the element's toxicity have led to mercury thermometers and sphygmomanometers being largely phased out in clinical environments in favor of alcohol-filled, galinstan-filled, digital, or thermistor-based instruments. It remains in use in scientific research applications and in amalgam material for dental restoration. It is used in lighting: electricity passed through mercury vapor in a fluorescent lamp produces short-wave ultraviolet light which then causes the phosphor in the tube to fluoresce, making visible light.

And this is to prove what exactly? Not only are there several species of mercury but the one used in vaccines, thiomersal has been removed from vaccines excepting some flu vaccines in most countries. Thiomersal preserved vaccines are still used in undeveloped countries where cold storage and handling are problems.

Este

 

[dafydd]

damm you started so nice and then you end with this!

Actually you're JAQ'ing off, making ridiculous claims and then expecting some kind of red-carpet treatment. All caps about vaccine conspiracies deserves mockery and ridicule.

Never mind you have gave me food for thought thanks for that. Clearly i do need to look closer at the evidence any helpful links would be appreciated. I came here to learn. keep ya mockery and ridicule for ya kids please!

It's ''your''. There, you've learned something.

 

[Dcdrac]

From what I have seen of Claytons posts and threads I would say <SNIP>

SNIPed, breach of rule 0/rule 12.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[dafydd]

Perhaps we should make it clear that this a grown-up skeptic's forum, and not a chat room in the Moronosphere. Not that I am accusing anyone of being a moron.

 

[Tomblvd]

Mercury is a chemical element with the symbol Hg and atomic number 80. It is also known as quicksilver or hydrargyrum ( < Greek "hydr-" water and "argyros" silver). A heavy, silvery d-block element, mercury is the only metal that is liquid at standard conditions for temperature and pressure; the only other element that is liquid under these conditions is bromine, though metals such as caesium, gallium, and rubidium melt just above room temperature. With a freezing point of −38.83 °C and boiling point of 356.73 °C, mercury has one of the narrowest ranges of its liquid state of any metal.[2][3][4]I

Mercury occurs in deposits throughout the world mostly as cinnabar (mercuric sulfide). The red pigment vermilion is mostly obtained by reduction from cinnabar. Cinnabar is highly toxic by ingestion or inhalation of the dust. Mercury poisoning can also result from exposure to water-soluble forms of mercury (such as mercuric chloride or methylmercury), inhalation of mercury vapor, or eating seafood contaminated with mercury.

Mercury is used in thermometers, barometers, manometers, sphygmomanometers, float valves, mercury switches, and other devices though concerns about the element's toxicity have led to mercury thermometers and sphygmomanometers being largely phased out in clinical environments in favor of alcohol-filled, galinstan-filled, digital, or thermistor-based instruments. It remains in use in scientific research applications and in amalgam material for dental restoration. It is used in lighting: electricity passed through mercury vapor in a fluorescent lamp produces short-wave ultraviolet light which then causes the phosphor in the tube to fluoresce, making visible light.

Try this:

Chlorine is a chemical element with symbol Cl and atomic number 17. Chlorine is in the halogen group (17) and is the second lightest halogen after fluorine. The element is a yellow-green gas under standard conditions, where it forms diatomic molecules. It has the highest electron affinity and the third highest electronegativity of all the elements; for this reason, chlorine is a strong oxidizing agent. Free chlorine is rare on Earth, and is usually a result of direct or indirect oxidation by oxygen.

The most common compound of chlorine, sodium chloride, has been known since ancient times. Around 1630 chlorine gas was first sythesized in a chemical reaction, but not recognized as a fundamentally important substance. Characterization of chlorine gas was made in 1774 by Carl Wilhelm Scheele, who supposed it an oxide of a new element. In 1809 chemists suggested that the gas might be a pure element, and this was confirmed by Sir Humphry Davy in 1810, who named it from Ancient Greek: χλωρóς khlôros "pale green".

Nearly all chlorine in the Earth's crust occurs as chloride in various ionic compounds, including table salt. It is the second most abundant halogen and 21st most abundant chemical element in Earth's crust. Elemental chlorine is commercially produced from brine by electrolysis. The high oxidizing potential of elemental chlorine led commercially to free chlorine's bleaching and disinfectant uses, as well as its many uses of an essential reagent in the chemical industry. Chlorine is used in the manufacture of a wide range of consumer products, about two-thirds of them organic chemicals such as polyvinyl chloride, as well as many intermediates for production of plastics and other end products which do not contain the element. As a common disinfectant, elemental chlorine and chlorine-generating compounds are used more directly in swimming pools to keep them clean and sanitary.

In the form of chloride ions, chlorine is necessary to all known species of life. Other types of chlorine compounds are rare in living organisms, and artificially produced chlorinated organics range from inert to toxic. In the upper atmosphere, chlorine-containing organic molecules such as chlorofluorocarbons have been implicated in ozone depletion. Small quantities of elemental chlorine are generated by oxidation of chloride to hypochlorite in neutrophils, as part of the immune response against bacteria. Elemental chlorine at high concentrations is extremely dangerous and poisonous for all living organisms, and was historically used in World War I as the first gaseous chemical warfare agent.

(empahsis mine)

There. I just proved that table salt is unsuitable for consumption.

 

[dafydd]

Jumpin' Jehosaphat! And I've been using it all my life!

 

[jdc324]

I have noticed a pattern on this whole forum. Anyone who expresses a view contrary to the common mantra aren't debated with but subject to ridicule (very much like a schoolyard). Any source they use cannot be a trusted objective source (and when it is it is brushed over).

With all due respect rob, that's nonsense.

People have debated with Clayton and they have addressed the substance of his posts (often posting links to reliable evidence that backs up what they say). Sadly, Clayton ignores the replies that address the content of his posts (perhaps because he is unable to argue against them). See this post here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8770683&postcount=2751 and the post from Estellea that is quoted. All the issues referred to there were brought up by Clayton and the substance of them addressed by other posters.

You're claiming that rather than doing this people have subjected Clayton to ridicule - look back over what's actually happened in this thread and you'll see that your claim is quite wrong.

 

[dafydd]

I think that Rob has left the building.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Clayton's links do get looked at [...]

But not by Clayton, ironically...

 

[Tomblvd]

I think that Rob has left the building.

I hope he went to find an introduction to chemistry book.

 

[JayUtah]

With all due respect rob, that's nonsense.

I agree. It's good advice to really read a forum in depth and try to get a feeling for the personalities of its posters before commenting on the dynamics of the debate. Rob, being a new poster, doesn't yet have sufficient understanding of how various regulars approach (or, in this case, run from) debate on a certain topic. Hence he doesn't have good judgment for whether some snapshot of the debate is good debate.

You're claiming that rather than doing this people have subjected Clayton to ridicule - look back over what's actually happened in this thread and you'll see that your claim is quite wrong.

Both are happening. Which is to say shame and ridicule are sometimes appropriate rhetorical tools in a debate where one opponent has, as in this case, egregiously ignored pertinent arguments. The pertinent argument must precede the ridicule, of course, and the ridicule must not be ad hominem. But it's certainly part of civil debate to take one's opponent to task for shady debate tactics.

One of those tactics, by the way, is the straw-man defense, which is what robcasey has himself attempted. Fringe proponents often try to curry favor or sympathy by claiming that skeptics meet their claims only with ridicule, when in fact perfect serviceable refutations were offered, and subsequent ridicule occurs only when the proponent outrageously fails to accommodate the refutation, yet maintains the strength of his position.

 

[Dcdrac]

Sorry ALl got a bit exasperated today

 

[000063]

This is because anti-vaxx positions are, basically, nonsense. Is there a risk associated with vaccines? Yep. Is it higher than actually getting the disease? Nope. Does it cause autism? There is no evidence to support it and ample evidence against it. The persecution anti-vaxxers have suffered is not materially relevant to whether they're right

But it does make it damm difficult for them to prove themselves right, and it lets everyone else know what will happen if you question authority!

They're not being "persecuted" because they're questioning authority. They're looked down upon because they are consistently wrong.

 

[Dcdrac]

And people like Wakefield et al have directly caused harm

 

[Tolls]

I agree. It's good advice to really read a forum in depth and try to get a feeling for the personalities of its posters before commenting on the dynamics of the debate. Rob, being a new poster, doesn't yet have sufficient understanding of how various regulars approach (or, in this case, run from) debate on a certain topic. Hence he doesn't have good judgment for whether some snapshot of the debate is good debate.

I get the impression lots of people simply dive into a forum/thread the first time they see it. Beyond techy ones, I can't think of a forum I hadn't loitered in for months (sometimes years) before posting. It always seems wise to case the joint beforehand, if only to reduce the odds of making a twit of myself.

 

[abaddon]

I get the impression lots of people simply dive into a forum/thread the first time they see it. Beyond techy ones, I can't think of a forum I hadn't loitered in for months (sometimes years) before posting. It always seems wise to case the joint beforehand, if only to reduce the odds of making a twit of myself.

Have to agree. I lurked JREF for years before joining.

 

[Multivac]

Facts! We doan need no stinkin' facts!

We don't need no ed-u-cay-shun! We don't need no thought control!