Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Border Reiver]

You can't insinuate vaccines into your answer. No wonder you can't understand the danger of vaccines.

Why not? We don't have outbreaks like those you cite because we vaccinate.

If you had wanted an answer to the question, "Would modern medicine be overwhelmed by an 1950s/1950s outbreak of measles if there was no immunity passed on by vaccinations" then you should have asked that question.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Oh brother.

Sorry, did you not have a direct answer for these:

The choice of smiley suggests you think this data is invalid. Why? Can it not be used in a retrospective or meta study of patient records? Surely if it can be shown that the key event in the (claimed and non existant) rise in recognised cases of autism is not the introduction of vaccination but the improved diagnosis of autism, would that not entirely undermine your own claims and assure you that vaccination is safe?

Don't worry, this is the third time of asking. I wont bother again, if you are happier looking like you are unable to face the simple and direct questions.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton the outbreak of measles was caused directly by people beleiving the fraud wakefields claims in his thoroughly discredited paper, net result some deaths and totally preventable suffering.

The real dangers inthe field of vaccination is people NOT getting vaccinated for easily preventable diseases like measles.

Maybe if I repeat the questions you might understand presented scenario is today's modern medicine vs an "actual" 1850 and 1950 measles outbreak.

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1850 measles outbreak? Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1950 measles outbreak?

 

[Dcdrac]

Evidence that MMR causes autism - NONE
Evidence that vaccinnes cause asthma - NONE
Evidence that vaccines are having an impact on evolution - NONE
Evidence that US children get a special American specific form of autism - NONE.

 

[Tomtomkent]

You can't insinuate vaccines into your answer.

You can't insuate vaccines are not part of modern medicine after the question has been asked.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1850 measles outbreak?

No. Because vaccination is part of modern medicine.

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1950 measles outbreak?

No. Because vaccination is part of modern medicine

 

[Dcdrac]

Clayton those randomly selected time periods are meaningless, other than if you had got measles in 1850 and 1950 it was more likely to kill or do serious damage to you than today.

Simple answer for that is Mrr Moore, modern medicine has progressed to the point that a measles outbreak can be contained and dealt with far more effectivily than in your utterly randomly chosen time periods.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Simple answer for that is Mrr Moore, modern medicine has progressed to the point that a measles outbreak can be contained and dealt with far more effectivly than in your utterly randomly chosen time periods.

Through vaccines and herd immunity, for example.

 

[Bingowings]

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1850 measles outbreak?

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1950 measles outbreak?

If by "overwhelmed" you mean "unable to treat" then yes. There is no treatment for measles other than painkillers for the symptoms. If you mean something different then I don't understand the questions, so here are some of my own. What is "an 1850 measles outbreak"? Were there measles epidemics in those years? Was one worse than the other?

I'd like to clarify something else, if I may. Is your assertion, Clayton, that lots of vaccines given in close proximity or simultaneously is where the harm comes from rather than the contents of the individual vaccines? If we spread the vaccines over a longer period of time we would not see as many cases of autism as we do now?

 

[Reality Check]

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1850 measles outbreak?

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1950 measles outbreak?

Whoops, the asking of irrelevant, ignorant questions is not good, Clayton Moore !

The post was in reply to this lie:

There have been no studies of unvaccinated children.

There have been many studies of unvaccinated children but:
What makes US children so different from the children in the rest of the world that a study needs to be done just for them?
First asked 12 November 2013. 2 days and counting.

Clayton Moore's 32 statements and 251 252 days of ignorance and delusion!

 

[Reality Check]

You can't insinuate vaccines into your answer.

You cannot ignore the effect of vaccines in the real world, Clayton Moore. Their existence means that it is impossible for an measles outbreak on the scale of previous measles outbreaks to happen. Asking about measles outbreaks on those scales just confirms your ignorance.

You do not cite these imaginary 1850 and 1950 measles outbreaks which as far as I can see did not happen !

No wonder you can't understand the reality of science and vaccines:
What makes US children so different from the children in the rest of the world that a study needs to be done just for them?
First asked 12 November 2013. 2 days and counting.

Clayton Moore's 32 statements and 251 252 days of ignorance and delusion!

 

[Reality Check]

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1850 measles outbreak? Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1950 measles outbreak?

You are mistaken about about there being a 1850 measles outbreak, Clayton Moore.

You are mistaken about there being a 1950 measles outbreak, Clayton Moore.

You are displaying your ignorance about the measles vaccine, Clayton Moore. The use of the measles vaccine means that any outbreak of measles that effects a proportion of a population large enough to cause modern medical faculties is not possible any more. Read Measles outbreaks in the 21st century and see that these are at most a few thousand people per country over periods of weeks:

• 94 over 25 weeks
• 30 in a year
• 776 in a year
• 127 over 7 months
• 1000 over a year
• 30,367 in 2008 over 32 European countries
• 26,000 in 2011 over 36 European countries
• etc.

What makes US children so different from the children in the rest of the world that a study needs to be done just for them?
First asked 12 November 2013. 2 days and counting.

Clayton Moore's 32 statements and 251 252 days of ignorance and delusion!

 

[jdc324]

Maybe if I repeat the questions you might understand presented scenario is today's modern medicine vs an "actual" 1850 and 1950 measles outbreak.

Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1850 measles outbreak? Do you think today's modern medicine would be overwhelmed by an 1950 measles outbreak?

Well now, this is interesting.

Clayton, do you believe that the mortality rate from measles infection has fallen since the 1950s? If so, why do you believe this? Is it because you have seen evidence that this is the case or is it that you simply believe it should be the case? What mechanism do you propose might plausibly have led to a reduction in mortality from measles since the 50s?

I'm very interested indeed in this part of the discussion. If I recall correctly, we've talked about this topic before and I pointed out that the mortality rate in the 90s and in this century, in England and Wales, is similar to that in the 50s. In fact, it appears to be very slightly higher than it was in the preceding decades. If there is something that has led to a reduced mortality rate since the 50s and 60s then what is that thing and why hasn't it reduced the mortality rate in England?

1 in 3600 in the 90s/00s
1 in 5500 in the 70s and 80s
1 in 4500 in the 60s
1 in 3000 in the 50s

Tell me, Clayton, do you know what the mortality rate has been in recent outbreaks in the Netherlands: http://justthevax.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/i-called-it-first-measles-death-in.html and Wales: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Swansea_measles_epidemic? What about in Germany in 2006: and Ireland in 2000: http://www.who.int/csr/don/2000_08_09/en/index.html?

So, what makes you think that the mortality rate has decreased since the 50s and what do you imagine could have changed since the 50s that might reduce mortality from measles?

 

[pakeha]

Clayton the outbreak of measles was caused directly by people beleiving the fraud wakefields claims in his thoroughly discredited paper, net result some deaths and totally preventable suffering.

The real dangers inthe field of vaccination is people NOT getting vaccinated for easily preventable diseases like measles.

Speaking of the dangers of non-vaccination, there's bad news in the Sudan concerning polio vaccination.
Apparently health workers haven't been allowed into the South Kordofan and Blue Nile provinces, wher over 160,000 children lack the vaccination.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24910178

There's possibly worse news coming out of Syria, if the Lancet article cited in this opinion piece is accurate in it's assessment.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24854920

 

[Dcdrac]

Answer the questions put to you clayton if you have any real answers beyond hysterical anti vaxxer kook insanity.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Answer the questions put to you clayton if you have any real answers beyond hysterical anti vaxxer kook insanity.

What question are you referring to? BTW It's Clayton Moore.

 

[dafydd]

What question are you referring to? BTW It's Clayton Moore.

Questions, not question. These questions which you have been avoiding for a long time. Man up and answer them.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9618392&postcount=6637

 

[Dcdrac]

Questions about the evidence for your anti vacination assertions so far none......ntohing no evidence at all and no questions put to you answered by you.

 

[000063]

What question are you referring to? BTW It's Clayton Moore.

Clayton, do you believe that the mortality rate from measles infection has fallen since the 1950s? If so, why do you believe this? Is it because you have seen evidence that this is the case or is it that you simply believe it should be the case? What mechanism do you propose might plausibly have led to a reduction in mortality from measles since the 50s?

If there is something that has led to a reduced mortality rate since the 50s and 60s then what is that thing and why hasn't it reduced the mortality rate in England?

So, what makes you think that the mortality rate has decreased since the 50s and what do you imagine could have changed since the 50s that might reduce mortality from measles?​

You're not fooling anyone. You know that, right?

 

[Tomtomkent]

What you're saying is that the US medical community is not better prepared to prevent deaths of measles patients today than it was in the 1950s.

Please correct us on this point by describing the treatments you think will be used today that were not available before 1959.