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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

You might draw that conclusion based on the information, but the information you have is how well you believe the person conforms to a particular gender norm.
I don't think you are distinguishing between gender norms and physical characteristics. Beards can be socially normalized or socially stigmatized, but almost everyone with a beard is male, in any given human society.
 
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Okay, I think I can see what you're saying now. If the base rate of relatively masculine cisgender females is much higher than the base rate of masculine MtF individuals, then the false positive rate will be high if you are using masculinity to sort people rather than something more reliable.

Yes. Far more cis women are impacted by 'I get to decide what your pronouns are' than trans women and that's pretty much mathematically proven.

I have not, and do not, maintain that adherence to feminine or masculine or feminine social norms ought to be factored in if you are trying to guess birth sex. There are far more reliable indicators of sex available, which is why there is currently a growth market for facial hair removal by electrolysis and facial feminization surgery, among other feminizing body modifications.

Hold up, you're separating out physical features from masculine and feminine stereotypes? That doesn't really make sense with your previous arguments.

If by "use she/her pronouns" you mean at all times and places, then yes, I reserve the right to use the pronouns that make sense to me instead of the ones which make sense to the people being referenced, when having conversations in private. You have yet to convince me that pronouns are somehow correct or incorrect because of self-id, since I've used pronouns for several decades before even being introduced to the idea of self-id.

My dear, who implied that convincing your was the goal or even a proxy for the strength of an argument? All you are saying here is that you think you are right, which, duh.

Let me provide a specific example, to show you what I mean. The woman on the right in this picture goes by Seani and helps to moderate a travel group for womxn. That's all well and good, but because he looks just exactly like a beardy bloke, I have trouble using his preferred pronouns when he's not around. Am I doing a violence?

You're being a jerk and if you're using wrong pronouns for her in a way that bolsters the confidence of her harassers you're enabling harassment even if she never becomes aware of it.

But violence? As has already been litigated, no. That you don't accept the outcome of the argument again shows that convincing you personally doesn't really factor in as you'll just dispense with any even conditional agreement to make another argument later.
 
So much effort in trying to find an excuse for being a jerk rather than simply admitting you want to be a jerk.
 
Maybe you missed poster Upchurch's argument, but the gist was that you can't identify someone's sex by visual appearance with any degree of reliability. "You can't ", he said, point blank. I'm serious. Go back and look. In that context, my argument was on point, although I could have used 95% of the population at large to the same effect, but that particular hottie was on my mind for other reasons.

You aren't observing his sex; your using other information as a proxy. He's right but you aren't parsing what the argument actually is correctly. You claim you're assigning pronouns based on sex but you're in reality assigning them based on proxy data.



As I already said, of course they can, but without remotely the conditions laid down by the forum rules. They are not remotely comparable IRL.

They're absolutely comparable. You haven't shown what the difference is that makes them so alien to each other. The largest one I can think of is that of third party enforcement, but whether you personally enforce them or someone else does, they're still comparable standards.


You don't think a hyperbolic or facetious argument can have meaning? If you say so. I find the meaning is unimpugned by its flippancy.

'Can' and 'does' aren't the same. If you say it is 'simply' facetious, then it doesn't.


Not sure where you ran off to? I said I could accurately identify sex upwards of 95% of the time. I base this off having met hundreds of people, and to the best of my knowledge, never guessed their sex wrong. Still, I'm saying almost one out of twenty I did guess wrong, and they chose not to tell me. You may think it is more, like maybe I guess right less than half the time and these people are just crazy easygoing. Transgender folk didn't factor into anything I said, in no small part because, as I said, I was guessing sex.


Yes in fact many people don't correct others when they misgender because it's exhausting and usually unimportant if random guy said the wrong thing.

And with a 95% confidence then you're wrong about 3.6% of the time.
 
Is being a jerk violence?
As we've covered, there are all sorts of non-physical violence. The thread is peppered with definitions and examples.

As for whether being a jerk is violence, the context matters. Is the jerk regularly bullying someone? Yes, that is violence.
 
I don't think you are distinguishing between gender norms and physical characteristics. Beards can be socially normalized or socially stigmatized, but almost everyone with a beard is male, in any given human society.

Are beards a determining factor? There are cis-women with beards and trans-men with beards, of course. Why wouldn't you conclude that all of these groups are biologically male based on the odds?
 
Her crimes. Quite an unpleasant person, from what I'm seeing. Britain's longest-serving transgender prisoner. But still "her".
"but, his penis ..."
"HER penis you effing bigot."

About the only consolation in having to endure this utter crap is its comedy value, intentional or otherwise.
 
Are beards a determining factor?
I don't think any single factor is a "determining factor" of sex other than gametes, but one can be male without producing sperm yet.

There are cis-women with beards and trans-men with beards, of course. Why wouldn't you conclude that all of these groups are biologically male based on the odds?
If the only information I have is the beard, then I'm going to guess sex correctly around 98-99% of the time. Not sure about guessing preferred pronouns, though, since there are some number of beardy blokes (natal males) who prefer they/them and whatnot.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
You're being a jerk and if you're using wrong pronouns for her in a way that bolsters the confidence of her harassers you're enabling harassment even if she never becomes aware of it.
I may have missed the argument that what makes pronouns right or wrong is how someone feels about them. Did anyone happen to answer my hypothetical upthread?
 
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You aren't observing his sex; your using other information as a proxy.

No, you're moving the goalposts again. I have said slowly, clearly, and dear God repeatedly that I think I can identify a person's sex north of 95% of the time by sight, which is a pretty damned reliable standard. I have not claimed that I am observing their sex. Are you following now?

Of the hundreds and hundreds of people I have met, maybe a half dozen were genuinely androgynous and I couldn't accurately identify which sex they were by sight alone. Those are the ones I am radically inflating in my <5% guesstimate for error. Realistically it would be less than 1%.

Might I have guessed wrong and was not aware of it? Sure. But I have no reason to believe I have.

He's right but you aren't parsing what the argument actually is correctly. You claim you're assigning pronouns based on sex but you're in reality assigning them based on proxy data.

No, both you and he are rebuilding the argument on the fly to make it easier to attack, rather than addressing the argument as presented.

They're absolutely comparable. You haven't shown what the difference is that makes them so alien to each other. The largest one I can think of is that of third party enforcement, but whether you personally enforce them or someone else does, they're still comparable standards.

The discussions here are pretty casual and conversational in nature. At no point in meatspace does a third party excommunicate a participant for changing the subject or addressing the speaker. Or hotlinking. Or using mild profanity. Or mentioning personally identifying names. There is far less in common with the rules here than shared social rules with meatspace interactions. If you applied forum rules to everyday discourse you would quickly be alone, as brothers would generally be avoiding your weirdo ass like the plague.


'Can' and 'does' aren't the same. If you say it is 'simply' facetious, then it doesn't.

Yes in fact many people don't correct others when they misgender because it's exhausting and usually unimportant if random guy said the wrong thing.

And with a 95% confidence then you're wrong about 3.6% of the time.

No, you are extrapolating by using the parameters very wrongly. My claim is that I think you can generally identify someone's sex using your senses north of 95% of the time, in contrast to the rather silly claim that you can't, like ever (see the wisdom of Upchurch upthread). Might a fully or cosmetically transitioned person slip by? Sure. In fact, kudos to those who appear to be the sex they identify as that convincingly. I'll happily refer to them as the sex they are living as.

But the discussion is about whether visual ID is reliable at all, which is the Boulder guideline, too (remember the Boulder UC guidelines? Seems so long ago). Upchurch is down with this too, saying you cannot assume gender/sex at all, ever. I say this is painfully stupid, and yes you damn well can upwards of 95% of the time, making it more reliable than many assumptions we use daily.
 
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If the only information I have is the beard, then I'm going to guess sex correctly around 98-99% of the time.

So, based on that, you would be unable to accurately determine the sex of cis-women or trans-men if they have facial hair, correct? You'd play the odds and determine that they are biologically male.
 
This Fall.
On NBC.... THE hottest new game show.

Can You Guess the Sex?

Watch as contestants run through the timed obstacle course with visual clues like 'hair color' 'beard' 'tattoo' and 'penis size'. Try your best or you could be thrown into the Pronoun Pin ballpit.

**Sundays at 2:00am**

Instant hit, right?
 
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If you put the average guys face on a woman, the species would die off in a generation. Thank God for the obviousness of it all.
 
If you put the average guys face on a woman, the species would die off in a generation. Thank God for the obviousness of it all.

Ohh, I have a quasi humorous retort or three to that...

Uhh, ever met any ugly people with kids? The other two would likely break forum rules.

Really, just think about it.
 
Ohh, I have a quasi humorous retort or three to that...

Uhh, ever met any ugly people with kids? The other two would likely break forum rules.

Really, just think about it.

Partially conceded. Eventually the inbreeding of the ugly genes would cancel out the sex drive, so maybe a few generations.

I mean, we've been using Upchurch's avatar as a running example.
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP> Edit for rule 9.
 
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Partially conceded. Eventually the inbreeding of the ugly genes would cancel out the sex drive, so maybe a few generations.

I mean, we've been using Upchurch's avatar as a running example.
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP> Edit for rule 9.

Theres always gonna be some guys that prefer manly faces... and some of them do want kids.
 
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Partially conceded. Eventually the inbreeding of the ugly genes would cancel out the sex drive, so maybe a few generations.

I mean, we've been using Upchurch's avatar as a running example.
Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP> Edit for rule 9.

TheNelsons_BagYourFace.jpg
 
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