Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

[d4m10n]

That's a fair comment, given what I've said in other threads about the lack of validity of so-called "inherent" rights. But in response I will suggest that Articles 1, 2, 5, 6, 12, 18, 19, and perhaps especially 22 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights apply.

Which one tells us about how to do pronouns right?

 

[Sherkeu]

Which one tells us about how to do pronouns right?

None of them. Go read them and you'll notice something quite ironic pretty quickly...

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

19 is:
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

It takes only 2 minutes to read them all.

 

[d4m10n]

I've never yet seen someone run a "penumbras and emanations" style argument from the UDHR but I'm down to watch.

ETA: I wonder how "freedom to hold opinions without interference" should apply to school "counselors like Mrs. McCordto."

 

[Thermal]

That example shows nothing. The existence of women who don't get misgendered doesn't in any way mean, well, much of anything. No one is arguing that anyone is equally likely to be misgendered.

Maybe you missed poster Upchurch's argument, but the gist was that you can't identify someone's sex by visual appearance with any degree of reliability. "You can't ", he said, point blank. I'm serious. Go back and look. In that context, my argument was on point, although I could have used 95% of the population at large to the same effect, but that particular hottie was on my mind for other reasons.

Really? People can't stop talking to you in real life? That's news to me!

What are you talking about? People can, and do, stop associating with others over not being civil all the damn time. The thresholds might be different with different people in different situations, but you think it doesn't exist in real life?

As I already said, of course they can, but without remotely the conditions laid down by the forum rules. They are not remotely comparable IRL.

They've argued that they shouldn't have to. Specifically d4m10n indicated this was in part motivated by needing to keep a job. They're saying that not just sex, but what they perceive someone's sex as, should be the primary factor always. Theprestige thinks that if he's wrong on sex, he'd change when told, but that's not reliable. See more of that below.

Theprestige argued that the helicpoter example is meaningful and insightful.

You don't think a hyperbolic or facetious argument can have meaning? If you say so. I find the meaning is unimpugned by its flippancy.

His cited article is paywalled, but from what some of the cited articles say it was something like 94% when all things like hair and makeup were covered (and something like 40% accurate for children's faces, which is hilarious).

But let's go with your 95% accurate. This would mean that about 8.8% (0.0871559633027523) of the people identified as transgender would actually be transgender. The rest would be cisgender incorrectly identified as transgender.

Not sure where you ran off to? I said I could accurately identify sex upwards of 95% of the time. I base this off having met hundreds of people, and to the best of my knowledge, never guessed their sex wrong. Still, I'm saying almost one out of twenty I did guess wrong, and they chose not to tell me. You may think it is more, like maybe I guess right less than half the time and these people are just crazy easygoing. Transgender folk didn't factor into anything I said, in no small part because, as I said, I was guessing sex.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm getting the sense that it's considered acceptable here to guess whether he sees himself as a man, but not to guess whether he is actually male or not. I'm happy to guess either way, but I'm much more confident when guessing something that can be objectively determined to be true or false.

Why are you guessing at all?

 

[d4m10n]

Why are you guessing at all?

Because I want to use pronouns!

(Preferably non-violently, but I'm not bent out of shape about that part.)

 

[Thermal]

Drag is a different issue (and incidentally has its own thread). Drag is a character. When in character, we use the character's pronouns. Have you seen any of the many interviews of RuPaul when he is out of character?

I think you are stereotyping drag performers. Some adopt the role more deeply than others, and use pronouns differently. Surely you are not dumping drag queens into a homogenous blob of uniformity?

 

[arthwollipot]

Because I want to use pronouns!

(Preferably non-violently, but I'm not bent out of shape about that part.)

Well, there's an easy way around that.

Hey Upchurch! What are your pronouns?

 

[Upchurch]

Well, there's an easy way around that.

Hey Upchurch! What are your pronouns?

He/him

 

[arthwollipot]

I think you are stereotyping drag performers. Some adopt the role more deeply than others, and use pronouns differently. Surely you are not dumping drag queens into a homogenous blob of uniformity?

No, of course not. RuPaul in fact has made a career out of being a drag queen, so it's pretty safe to say that it's pretty important as an identity. Other drag queens drop the character as soon as they're out of makeup.

But that doesn't change my point - you use the pronouns appropriate to the character when the person is in character.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm willing to bet on "he/him" either way because trans men have to work hard to grow a beard like that.

ETA: Ninja'd! ��

 

[arthwollipot]

I missed this post the first time around.

...but it's vital that I know whether he thinks of himself as male, yeah? Otherwise I'm at risk of using "incorrect pronouns" and thereby violating local norms.

Sure, but the risk is small. At worst, someone will correct you.

Repeatedly and maliciously using the wrong pronouns in order to harass or bully someone is a different matter. Which is a distinction I have made many times in this thread so I'm not sure why I still need to do so.

Excellent; we can safely rule out social transition as a form of affirmative care in such cases.

Why would a lack of an entry in the DSM rule out social transition?

 

[arthwollipot]

He/him

Thank you.

See how easy that was? No guessing required.

 

[Thermal]

He/him

Not sure how to react here.

Option 1) "well spank my ass and call.me Donny, I guessed right, just like all the other times I guess right!", or

Option 2) False. Your pronouns are I, me my. Other people's pronoun usage are their own selection. Unless you refer to yourself as "he"? Glad you added the "him", too, or I would have used he/platypus'.

 

[d4m10n]

See how easy that was? No guessing required.

No guessing required when you have an open line of communication. Sometimes, though, we use pronouns for people we've only seen at a distance or on the news, or read about in history books. Sometimes we use pronouns for our pets, who cannot tell us anything about their gender, but at least they aren't covered by any declarations of human rights.

 

[Thermal]

No, of course not. RuPaul in fact has made a career out of being a drag queen, so it's pretty safe to say that it's pretty important as an identity. Other drag queens drop the character as soon as they're out of makeup.

But that doesn't change my point - you use the pronouns appropriate to the character when the person is in character.

Pretty freaking bold to speak for all drag queens, and assert that all use pronouns as you assert. You pretty sure all use them that way? None that use any neos? Wiki and other drag sites disagree, and say the spectrum of genders are represented each way.

 

[d4m10n]

Repeatedly and maliciously using the wrong pronouns in order to harass or bully someone is a different matter.

I really don't think you've shown whether and how this is actually a thing yet.

For the sake of clarity do you mean "wrong" as in immoral or as in incorrect, here?

If I were to tell you she/her are the "wrong pronouns" for my youngest dog, I'd be telling you he was born with certain external external bits, some of which have since been removed. This is a matter of fact which can be easily checked by those who remain skeptical, assuming you have access to either the dog himself or his records.

 

[arthwollipot]

No guessing required when you have an open line of communication. Sometimes, though, we use pronouns for people we've only seen at a distance or read about in history books.

As I said before, nobody cares about those situations. They don't matter. Use whatever pronoun you feel is best. What's the worst that will happen? If you're wrong, someone will correct you. Big deal.

Sometimes we use pronouns for our pets, who cannot tell us anything about their gender, but at least they aren't covered by any declarations of human rights.

Pets don't have agency, and arguably don't possess a level of self-awareness that might result in gender ambiguity. So pets are a red herring.

 

[arthwollipot]

I really don't think you've shown whether and how this is actually a thing yet.

For the sake of clarity do you mean "wrong" as in immoral or as in incorrect, here?

I thought it was already pretty clear that I mean incorrect. I feel like I have to say everything multiple times here. There are no "preferred" pronouns. There are just the right ones, and the wrong ones.

 

[arthwollipot]

Pretty freaking bold to speak for all drag queens, and assert that all use pronouns as you assert. You pretty sure all use them that way? None that use any neos? Wiki and other drag sites disagree, and say the spectrum of genders are represented each way.

I speak from my experience knowing and interacting with drag queens. And drag kings, by the way, who are frequently forgotten in these discussions. Of course there will be variation.