Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

[Emily's Cat]

to be fair, this thread is about how important insulting others is to the free exchange of ideas on a university campus. don't see why any snowflakery by anyone in this thread should be an exception.

More realistically, it's about whether or not a person taking offense (regardless of whether insult was intended) is sufficient to limit the freedom of others.

It's not about whether it's important to be able to insult others with impunity. It's about whether a person feeling insulted is justified in taking action against those who hurt their feelings.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm confused. This isn't in the student handbook. It's not in any bylaws or anything. It's essentially a blog post for a student group that is trying to discuss misgendering people.

At worst, it seems a well-meaning person with no actual authority made a poor choice of words in a document of no consequence.

Is that the controversey?

It's a bit more widespread than just that.

Let me google that for you...

And in case that's too subtle...
https://www.philasd.org/studentrights/wp-content/uploads/sites/67/2022/04/Tips-for-Affirmative-Language-Misgendering.pdf
https://browngirlmagazine.com/misgendering-is-an-act-of-violence-and-it-needs-to-stop/
https://twitter.com/cassandrajames_/status/1457532724944654339?lang=en
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/equality-not-elitism/rhode-island-school-board-member-misgendering-is-violence
https://affinitymagazine.us/2017/04/17/intentionally-misgendering-transgender-people-is-considered-violence/
https://www.allsides.com/news/2020-06-18-1039/misgendering-act-violence-and-it-needs-stop
https://mustreadalaska.com/misgendering-a-trans-person-is-an-act-of-violence-and-other-lessons-gleaned-from-uafs-gender-diversity-campaign/
You can even buy tons of merch making this claim:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/Misgendering-is-an-act-of-violence-by-sleeping-cactus/82403329.EJUG5

 

[theprestige]

Not really sure what it means for something to be a hate crime in principle

You know how the law sometimes criminalizes things you believe should be legal, or legalizes things you believe should be criminal?

That's what it means.

I take it from your commentary so far on this point that you believe using the wrong pronouns for someone:

a) should not be criminalized

b) should not be considered an act of violence

c) should not be considered an act of oppression

d) that it's no big deal if guidelines at at least one American university contradict (b) and (c).

Is that a correct inference for me to make, about your beliefs?

 

[Emily's Cat]

My first name is a name that has a common and probably more used than the name in full alternate. I hate that name. When I introduce myself I tell folk my actual name, if they then use the shortened version I'll politely tell them they've got it wrong. 99.9% of people aren't then rude enough to continue to call me by the shortened name.

I see no difference if someone asks me to use he, she or they, if I'm referring to them by a pronoun, it's no skin off my nose, it doesn't affect me at all so why would I insist on being rude?

Do you care if people refer to you by the shortened version of your name when you aren't there to hear it?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Do you care if people refer to you by the shortened version of your name when you aren't there to hear it?

People would probably notice if you went out of your way to disrespect someone's fairly mundane requests only behind their backs. Real cowardly and petty behavior. "Two-faced" i suppose is the term to describe such a person.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Be sure to tell all your coworkers and your boss how much it bothers you!

HR should give slide shows about neopronouns solely as an exercise to identify whiny boomers to fire before their curmudgeonly ways cause a discrimination lawsuit. It's so incredibly easy to get these bitter old farts to out themselves.

Case in point.

On one hand, there's the coercive insistence that people be respectful of one set of people... while on the other hand feeling justified to belittle, insult, and intentionally denigrate others on their whim.

While also simultaneously calling for the forced unemployment of someone for not having the "right" beliefs.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Case in point.

On one hand, there's the coercive insistence that people be respectful of one set of people... while on the other hand feeling justified to belittle, insult, and intentionally denigrate others on their whim.

While also simultaneously calling for the forced unemployment of someone for not having the "right" beliefs.

Sucks to suck, what can I say?

Not really interested in rehashing the usefulness of public accommodations and other foundational civil rights law just because you have a personal distaste for trans people.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you really think it helps your argument to assume everyone who disagrees with you is of a certain generation? And if you are correct does that somehow give you an excuse to disregard their beliefs?

No... but it does provide them with the religious armor to justify them being disrespectful, discourteous, rude, uncivil, and intentionally insulting to "those people".

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's rude to try to correct someone when they're telling you their preference, because nobody is wrong about what their preference is.

But conversely, their preference doesn't automatically have to dictate your behavior. I don't think it's rude to use their full name even if they prefer a nickname. I would find it odd, but I would never consider it an act of oppression or violence.

"Hi my name is Richard, but I go by Bubbletwat"

Yeah, I'm calling you Richard at work.

 

[Donal]

It's a bit more widespread than just that.

Let me google that for you...

And in case that's too subtle...
https://www.philasd.org/studentrights/wp-content/uploads/sites/67/2022/04/Tips-for-Affirmative-Language-Misgendering.pdf
https://browngirlmagazine.com/misgendering-is-an-act-of-violence-and-it-needs-to-stop/
https://twitter.com/cassandrajames_/status/1457532724944654339?lang=en
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/equality-not-elitism/rhode-island-school-board-member-misgendering-is-violence
https://affinitymagazine.us/2017/04/17/intentionally-misgendering-transgender-people-is-considered-violence/
https://www.allsides.com/news/2020-06-18-1039/misgendering-act-violence-and-it-needs-stop
https://mustreadalaska.com/misgendering-a-trans-person-is-an-act-of-violence-and-other-lessons-gleaned-from-uafs-gender-diversity-campaign/
You can even buy tons of merch making this claim:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/Misgendering-is-an-act-of-violence-by-sleeping-cactus/82403329.EJUG5

Doesn't really change my point.

If anything, After reading several of those (I suggest you do the same), I am inclined to be more open to what they are saying.

Unless you simply want to shut down this free exchange of ideas.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you disagree with the ACLU and their neverending commitment to issues of Free Speech? Remember they defended the Nazis right to march in Illinois.

ACLU has changed a lot. Now they sue citizens who use FoI to request data about public institutions.

 

[mumblethrax]

You know how the law sometimes criminalizes things you believe should be legal, or legalizes things you believe should be criminal?

That's what it means.

A hate crime is not a crime. It's a sentencing enhancement. You can't commit a hate crime independent of committing some other crime. Instead, you can be charged with something like "first degree assault as a hate crime". Usually it's a narrow subset of crimes that can be treated as hate crimes. As there's no such crime involved in misgendering someone by itself, there is no possibility of treating it as a hate crime, barring a radical sea change in our legal system (and not merely at the LGBTQ+ alliance at a university).

I take it from your commentary so far on this point that you believe using the wrong pronouns for someone:

a) should not be criminalized

b) should not be considered an act of violence

c) should not be considered an act of oppression

d) that it's no big deal if guidelines at at least one American university contradict (b) and (c).

Is that a correct inference for me to make, about your beliefs?

I'd quibble with c, I guess. You could consider it a form of oppression, at least sometimes, given that you can misgender someone maliciously and with an intention of exerting power over them.

Given that, I would only really consider it a matter of public interest whether guidelines of a university (guidelines at a university strikes me as equivocal) treated misgendering as violence, and then only if there were any potential and specific consequences for students.

Since these aren't the university's guidelines (that page even has an explicit non-endorsement), I don't remotely give a ****.

 

[Hercules56]

I predict that it will not be long before some colleges start posting guidelines or suggestions that the misuse of pronouns be reported to police as an actual assault or act of violence. Or they will suggest that physical force is justified to defend oneself against the intentional misuse of pronouns.

"He called me a he, I clearly identify as a she, I felt attacked and therefore defended myself"

I hope this phenomenon does not develop but I predict it will.

 

[Donal]

got a timetable for that?

 

[Hercules56]

got a timetable for that?

I give it 5 years. Within 5 years I predict people will start reporting intentional misuse of pronouns as a crime to the police. Or justify the use of physical Force as self-defense against such language.


We live in interesting times.

 

[Donal]

1) 5 years is certainly long from now. Makes me wonder if you decided to amend your hot take

2) that isn't what you said. You said colleges would start posting guidelines informing people to do so.

3) I guess if they identified as a white male, they will be that sensitive

4) Its no less a defense than certain successful applications of "stand your ground"

 

[lomiller]

I predict that it will not be long before some colleges start posting guidelines or suggestions that the misuse of pronouns be reported to police as an actual assault or act of violence. Or they will suggest that physical force is justified to defend oneself against the intentional misuse of pronouns.

"He called me a he, I clearly identify as a she, I felt attacked and therefore defended myself"

I hope this phenomenon does not develop but I predict it will.

That seems really unlikely, any by that I mean crazy conspiracy theory unlikely. Why, or even how, would a university start doing this unless there were an actual change in the law first.

If universities want to do something about pronoun use they would put it in their code of conduct, not try to have police arrests people under a fictitious law. Generally speaking, private organizations are fully entitled to have their own code of conduct and behavior standards, and if they want to insist people are polite to each other while on the organizations property, they can.

 

[Cat Not Included]

I think the moral lesson of this thread is that we need to teach our children to have thicker skin. Clearly they are way too sensitive and their feelings are way too delicate. Life is sometimes complicated and difficult and on occasion you will encounter language that you find hurtful. That doesn't give you the right to smack somebody or accuse them of a crime. In essence, grow up butter cup.

Like, for example, people should stop being so thin skinned and going into a frothing rage and proclaiming the end of free speech every time some random person says something they don't like? Just as a wild, hypothetical example.

 

[Hercules56]

Like, for example, people should stop being so thin skinned and going into a frothing rage and proclaiming the end of free speech every time some random person says something they don't like? Just as a wild, hypothetical example.

The thin-skinned snowflakes are the ones who think a simple insult is as bad as physical violence. I suspect they will soon report such incidents as a crime to the police or defend themselves against such attacks with physical Force.

Because you know in our society if someone says something that hurts your feelings you have the right to hit them. I'm sure the courts will back them up.

In many countries you can go to jail for insulting God so why not put people in prison here for calling you a he rather than a she.

 

[Ron Obvious]

I said it before, but I can't wait for the Furries to get their turn. I wonder if their demands to be treated as the animals they feel themselves to be will be met with the ridicule they deserve or whether the "misgendering == violence" crowd will continue to tie themselves into knots over the right of preferred victim groups to override objective reality.

I hope it'll be a step too far for them but I don't take anything for granted anymore.